Forums Latest Members
  1. BASE1000 Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Oct 1, 2013

    Posts
    443
    Likes
    816

    Well, it seems like this information is not completely correct. Marco Richon writes in his book 'a journey through time', that beside the 500 watches from Bienne there was a special edition issued by the Italian market itself, which carries on the outside of the caseback the 'i' for Italy and the omega sign in a circle as well as the engraved number in between.

    Data gathered by various collectors in Italy suggests that Omega Bienne, in fact, produced only about 350 pieces of this model by his own, whereas another 150 were produced under license by Fratelli De Marchi, the Omega licensee in Italy, Torino at this time. Because no two of these watches have ever been found that share the same limited edition number.

    Collectors of the very early Speedmasters know about this kind of license-partner-watches, because nowadays it makes no sense for example to order an extract of the archives for a 2915 or an early 2998, as Omega will not provide any further information than the fact, that the watch (not specified!) was produced under license of Lemania at l'Orient and delivered to this or that country under this or that date.

    The Fratelli De Marchi Apollo Soyuz are similar kind of license partner watches. The museum can not recognize from the Omega factory records which of the outgoing Speedmaster became one of the limited Apollo Soyuz series in Italy. The records do also not contain any note about the engraved consecutive numbering on the caseback. It seems only clear that the factory delivered the relevant movements in summer 1975 to De Marchi and that they carried numbers around 32.xxx.xxx whereas the Biel assembled models carry 39.xxx.xxx movements and were delivered to the agents not before 1976. To my knowledge this watches went to Italy as well. I have never heard or seen anything about a different destiny than Italy.

    After all the 'Fratelli De Marchi' matter is one of the very interesting but still not completely unveiled question around the mysteries of this famous and very first LE Speedmaster. However there is no doubt in what mstanga says, that this watch shows up extremely rare, maybe one example every 3 years. This makes it more than likely that no more than 500 items in total were issued to the market. Let me compare the Soyuz with the ST 345.0809 moonphase from 1985 with also no more than 1300 unites produced. Although this watch is similar collectible and iconic, it can be sourced any time if you are ready for an international transaction or/ and to pay a serious amount, whereas the 500 Soyuz 's disappeared practically from the market.
     
    vlaspri likes this.
  2. dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Oct 1, 2013

    Posts
    27,099
    Likes
    32,817
    Were they all produced by Lemania or only some? Also at what point during the 2998 production run did that change?
     
  3. BASE1000 Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Oct 2, 2013

    Posts
    443
    Likes
    816
    hi dsio, this is, what the museum in Bienne answered me a couples of years ago:

     
  4. mstanga Oct 2, 2013

    Posts
    59
    Likes
    130

    Dear Base1000 (sorry but I don't know your name in real life)
    we know about the Fratelli De Marchi issue, here attached (courtesy of italian forum's member called "Apollo-Soyuz" who bought and own a Fratelli DeMarchi Apollo Soyuz with 31 million serial number and that is actually having problems in order to have his watch recognized by Omega) you'll find an original Omega "facture" where you can find that Omega while was shipping watches and parts to Fratelli De Marchi indicated specifically that 39.181.xxx and 39.180.xxx movement were related to ST145.0022 Apollo Soyuz (100 pieces). Since we know there is a very little number of Apollo Soyuz out of that range (the most part of these are not recognized from Omega like Apollo Soyuz speed master but only like speed master) it is possible to presume that Fratelli DeMarchi made some mistakes assembling a little part of these 100-150 Apollo Soyuz watches changing movements and in such case pushers too, since we know someone who bought the watch from Italian official dealer with pushers measuring 5 mm and not 5,5 mm.
    In conclusion, in front of an evaluation or a future purchase, in order to avoid problems and doubts, I suggest that the Apollo Soyuz should correspond most possible to the following requirement:

    5,5 mm pushers
    case back with engraved the L.E. number (that's mandatory)
    39.180.xxx - 39.181.xxx movement serial number
    1168 endlinks 633 bracelet
    and an extract from archives indicating specifically "Speedmaster Apollo Soyuz"

    [​IMG]
     
  5. BASE1000 Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Oct 2, 2013

    Posts
    443
    Likes
    816
    Unfortunatels the known correspondence between the italian collector and Mr. Brandon Thomas from the Museum, which I have read, is not too fertil and not logic in all aspects of this interesting matter. Mr. Thomas does not explain the different description of the matter in Richon's book. However he reveals, that the Omega records (which acutally are not more but this 'factures' that you kindly have attached in your post above) do not even say anything about the engraved consecutive numbers from the casebacks of each watch. With other words, Omega even can not confirm which movement belongs to which number of the 500. Knowing this, all older 'Extract of Archivs', that Omega issued in former times matching an engraved number with a special movement number are obsolet from todays point of view. Omega in fact does and did not know more than: "montre acier inox Apollo" beeing delivered to De Marchi in April 1976.

    Mr Thomas from the Museum wrote a very interesting phrase to that italian collector, which might be a key to the puzzle:

    De Marchi was the insistigator of the limited edition! This might makes sense when looking to the delivery date in summer 1975, when the hype of the Apollo-Soyuz project was on its peak (the mission took place from 15th July to 24th July 1975). Omega delivered in 1976. However it does not perfectly explain that every De Marchi Soyuz seems to have one of consecutive numbers that never ever have shown up twice and that are not especially early ones....

    Last sentence of Mr Thomas is:

    Interesting but still no explanation for the consecutiv and never doubled numbers on all (!) known Apollo Soyuz Watches (Only in the book of Richon the picture looks like there is no engravement. However it might only be faded as in many cases).

    Everybody is welcome to contribute any further knowledge to this matter :)
     
  6. mstanga Oct 2, 2013

    Posts
    59
    Likes
    130
    IMHO all the Apollo Soyuz watches produced must have the limited edition number engraved on the case back.
    I would never buy an Apollo Soyuz without engraved numbers on the case back, 5mm thick pushers and a movement serial numbers in the 31-33 million range moreover if without extract of archives.

    As I wrote, this is my personal opinion and however I'm opened to all other opinions of forum's members.
     
  7. speedy4ever Moonwatch Only Author Oct 2, 2013

    Posts
    639
    Likes
    782
    Hi,
    There will be 1-2 more information in our book, nothing revolution, just volume numbers and dates. But we indeed were not able to find invoices for 500 pieces, despite tracking invoices from 1975 to 1977. We also believe in the De Marchi hypothesis.
    Sorry for not being able to tell more at thr moment.
     
  8. BASE1000 Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Oct 3, 2013

    Posts
    443
    Likes
    816

    Great that you had the opportunity to have a look to the invoices :thumbsup: (Probably like that one mstanga posted?!)
    How many could you track down there? Around 350 as generally is supposed?
     
  9. speedy4ever Moonwatch Only Author Oct 3, 2013

    Posts
    639
    Likes
    782
    A bit more. Double checked some time before by the museum and same number.
     
  10. niceboy182 Nov 29, 2013

    Posts
    3
    Likes
    7
    my love :)
     
    ore 8 50.jpg
    vlaspri, smitty190373, GregH and 4 others like this.
  11. dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Nov 29, 2013

    Posts
    27,099
    Likes
    32,817
    Very nice and welcome mate!
     
    niceboy182 likes this.
  12. niceboy182 Nov 29, 2013

    Posts
    3
    Likes
    7
    thanks !!
     
  13. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Nov 29, 2013

    Posts
    5,753
    Likes
    2,908
    Welcome bro. Rare LE Speedy Pro............very heandsome.:thumbsup:
     
    niceboy182 likes this.
  14. mstanga Nov 30, 2013

    Posts
    59
    Likes
    130
  15. niceboy182 Nov 30, 2013

    Posts
    3
    Likes
    7
    sure :)
     
  16. dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Mar 14, 2014

    Posts
    27,099
    Likes
    32,817
    Think I've decided I need one of these
     
  17. timeismoney Mar 14, 2014

    Posts
    1,301
    Likes
    2,860
     
  18. timeismoney Mar 14, 2014

    Posts
    1,301
    Likes
    2,860
    sorry, i was speechless...very nice collection BASE 1000!
     
    BASE1000 likes this.
  19. MSNWatch Vintage Omega Aficionado Staff Member Mar 15, 2014

    Posts
    6,541
    Likes
    10,878
    Your username is appropriate for this thread.
     
    timeismoney and BASE1000 like this.
  20. kov Trüffelschwein. Nov 1, 2016

    Posts
    4,113
    Likes
    16,087
    Hope your user gets banned and deleted before you're even able to do so :rolleyes: ::facepalm2::