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Anyone have a historical watch?

pdxleaf
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
Interesting update to this piece.

The Majeteks where delivered to the Check AF when they where in Britain during this time period.

So why was this one delivered to Bratislava? Why was there a group of watches with the high end movement and more military hands delivered to an occupied civilian market? The military issued ones have cathedral hands.

This came up at a Longines Event where these watches were showcased along with other historical aviation watches a few months back. I was chatting with the head of branding and heritage and he was surprised to see mine.

Turns out they don’t know either…

I love that watch. 🥰

A little story. My brother and I visited tge Longines museum last year, in spite of not knowing much about Longines (there are many, many things I don't know much about so I don't let that hold me back.)

Fantastic collection and exhibition. Here's the point. Out of that amazing collection, I only took two photos of watches, both of which I had never seen but thought they were amazing (proving I knew next to nothing about Longines).

20231026_160520.jpg 20231026_155105.jpg 20231026_142104.jpg


(My brother making the walk down from the train station. Such a great location. You feel like you're walking into the past.)

These are so well balanced and perfectly proportioned. They could have been hideous on paper, but they are perfectly designed. Great watch.
 
Lépine
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
Interesting update to this piece.

The Majeteks where delivered to the Check AF when they where in Britain during this time period.

So why was this one delivered to Bratislava? Why was there a group of watches with the high end movement and more military hands delivered to an occupied civilian market? The military issued ones have cathedral hands.

This came up at a Longines Event where these watches were showcased along with other historical aviation watches a few months back. I was chatting with the head of branding and heritage and he was surprised to see mine.

Turns out they don’t know either…


Does it have Majetek markings that you are confident are good? I believe Adriano Divadoni wrote that some watches were originally civilian and then conscripted into Czech afterwards. Bratislava seems like it could possibly be either civilian or military guessing from the location in Slovakia? I think they need to recheck the delivery date. It's a surprising date. Either the movement is wrong or the report is incorrect.


upload_2024-3-15_11-49-30.png




"
THIRD SERIES

In the third series, the most recent and widespread, we have the following batches produced:

lot 20067 serial 7.45 (stainless steel; assigned)*

lot 23313 serial 7.18;7.11;7.479;7.45;7.16million;stainless steel;not assigned)*

lot 23314 serial 7.4 million (anti-corrosion; not assigned, step crown)

lot 23519 serial 7.45 million (stainless steel; not assigned)

lot 23315 serial 7.43 million (stainless steel; unassigned; step crown)

lot 23684 serial 5.72;7.52;7.47-nocorrespondance case/caseback-;7.43;7.45 (stainless steel;4 assigned;one q. enamel)*

NB on this batch the production serial numbers are high enough to imagine a large quantity produced.

lot 23384 serial 7.45 million (stainless steel; not assigned)

lot 22647 non-readable serial numbers (stainless steel; 2 of which one assigned)

lot 23694 serial 7.52 million (stainless steel; assigned)

lot 23510 serial 7.45 million (stainless steel; not assigned)

lot 20164 serial 7.50 million (anti-corrosion, unassigned)

Other lots were cataloged through photos of the internal caseback only, without other data. They were not considered for the purposes of the discussion. The lots marked with an asterisk have been sold or have been subsequently modified using different movements. The size of the movements are similar to each other, however there will never be a certain explanation for this data that emerged from the serial/movement comparison.


Considering the third supply batch documented by the registers present at the Longines museum as 3582 pieces, considering the number of references and pieces analyzed in this research we can hypothesize the total amount of pieces supplied to be around 6/7 thousand pieces (it corresponds roughly with the number of forces of sky of the Czek Air Force).

The first two supplies were made directly by the exclusive resellers in Czechoslovakia to the Czech Air Force during the monarchy and during the conflict while the last, or rather the last batches of the same, to the devious and dictatorial communist party, which had unfortunately already come to power with the strength after the end of the Second World War.
" --- Adriano Divadoni
Edited:
 
Foo2rama
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Lépine Seiji
Does it have Majetek markings that you are confident are good? I believe Adriano Divadoni wrote that some watches were originally civilian and then conscripted into Czech afterwards. Bratislava seems like it could possibly be either civilian or military guessing from the location in Slovakia? I think they need to recheck the delivery date. It's a surprising date. Either the movement is wrong or the report is incorrect.


upload_2024-3-15_11-49-30.png




"
THIRD SERIES

In the third series, the most recent and widespread, we have the following batches produced:

lot 20067 serial 7.45 (stainless steel; assigned)*

lot 23313 serial 7.18;7.11;7.479;7.45;7.16million;stainless steel;not assigned)*

lot 23314 serial 7.4 million (anti-corrosion; not assigned, step crown)

lot 23519 serial 7.45 million (stainless steel; not assigned)

lot 23315 serial 7.43 million (stainless steel; unassigned; step crown)

lot 23684 serial 5.72;7.52;7.47-nocorrespondance case/caseback-;7.43;7.45 (stainless steel;4 assigned;one q. enamel)*

NB on this batch the production serial numbers are high enough to imagine a large quantity produced.

lot 23384 serial 7.45 million (stainless steel; not assigned)

lot 22647 non-readable serial numbers (stainless steel; 2 of which one assigned)

lot 23694 serial 7.52 million (stainless steel; assigned)

lot 23510 serial 7.45 million (stainless steel; not assigned)

lot 20164 serial 7.50 million (anti-corrosion, unassigned)

Other lots were cataloged through photos of the internal caseback only, without other data. They were not considered for the purposes of the discussion. The lots marked with an asterisk have been sold or have been subsequently modified using different movements. The size of the movements are similar to each other, however there will never be a certain explanation for this data that emerged from the serial/movement comparison.


Considering the third supply batch documented by the registers present at the Longines museum as 3582 pieces, considering the number of references and pieces analyzed in this research we can hypothesize the total amount of pieces supplied to be around 6/7 thousand pieces (it corresponds roughly with the number of forces of sky of the Czek Air Force).

The first two supplies were made directly by the exclusive resellers in Czechoslovakia to the Czech Air Force during the monarchy and during the conflict while the last, or rather the last batches of the same, to the devious and dictatorial communist party, which had unfortunately already come to power with the strength after the end of the Second World War.
" --- Adriano Divadoni
Mine has no markings and delivered to Bratislava on Dec 3rd 1945 according to Longines records.

You're putting mine in the wrong group, it is a 2nd series with the 15.26 movement, and 6,643,xxx serial number. My understanding is that these 2nd series are all unmarked, and I assume delivered to Bratislava
.
 
Dan S
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
Mine has no markings and delivered to Bratislava on Dec 3rd 1945 according to Longines records.

You're putting mine in the wrong group, it is a 2nd series with the 15.26 movement, and 6,643,xxx serial number. My understanding is that these 2nd series are all unmarked, and I assume delivered to Bratislava.
Interesting, yours seems out of expected sequence based on the serial number and delivery date.

I also have a second series 15.26. Serial #6,776,069, delivered to Bratislava in August 1944. So a later serial but much earlier delivery. No military markings, pencil hands, and not indicated military by the extract, so I always figured it was civilian. I also have a 6.9M watch delivered in December 1945.
 
upload_2024-3-15_19-32-16.jpeg
w154
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My 2nd series has the following extract…

The original serial number 6'643'xxx identifies a wristwatch in stainless steel bearing the reference 3582 and was called "Majetek". It is fitted with a Longines manually wound mechanical movement, caliber 15.26. It was invoiced on 17 November 1943 to the company Weinstabl, which was at that time our agent for Czechoslovakia and was dedicated to the Czechoslovakian Army.

Foo2rama Foo2rama
You're putting mine in the wrong group, it is a 2nd series with the 15.26 movement, and 6,643,xxx serial number. My understanding is that these 2nd series are all unmarked, and I assume delivered to Bratislava
.

Interesting that yours is so close in terms of SN, but more than a year apart in terms of delivery date.
 
Dan S
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w154 w154
Interesting that yours is so close in terms of SN, but more than a year apart in terms of delivery date.
Two years!
 
Foo2rama
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w154 w154
My 2nd series has the following extract…

The original serial number 6'643'xxx identifies a wristwatch in stainless steel bearing the reference 3582 and was called "Majetek". It is fitted with a Longines manually wound mechanical movement, caliber 15.26. It was invoiced on 17 November 1943 to the company Weinstabl, which was at that time our agent for Czechoslovakia and was dedicated to the Czechoslovakian Army.



Interesting that yours is so close in terms of SN, but more than a year apart in terms of delivery date.
Is yours marked in the caseback?
 
w154
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
Is yours marked in the caseback?
Nope. I think none of the 15.26 are marked are they ?
 
Foo2rama
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w154 w154
Nope. I think none of the 15.26 are marked are they ?
No they all seem to be civilian delivered in occupied territory. From 1940 through August 1945 they where in the UK as part of the RAF...
 
w154
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
No they all seem to be civilian delivered in occupied territory. From 1940 through August 1945 they where in the UK as part of the RAF...
You think Longines are mis-informed with the comment “It was invoiced on 17 November 1943 to the company Weinstabl, which was at that time our agent for Czechoslovakia and was dedicated to the Czechoslovakian Army” ?
 
Lépine
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My watch, nothing special, Prague delivery. First generation. Matching case / movement numbers.

IMG_7921.jpeg


Looks like it was worn quite a bit before I got it back in the 1990s.
Heavy pitting from sweat?

image.jpg image.jpg IMG_7906.jpeg



Notes from Adriano Divadoni's research on first generation.
These were marked for Czech Military.

upload_2024-3-16_15-17-38.png


The references

There is only one reference, the 3582, while many production lots of the "tartarugone" can be found, different in caliber and period. From their collection the resulting picture is not completely clear, but quite understandable.



FIRST SERIES

In the first series, equipped with the 15.94 movement, the first caliber used by the "tartarugoni" (1936/37), we often see the stamping on the internal case back of the movement serial number. Many cases in the very first series were built with Poldi stainless steel called "anti-corrosion" and stamped inside the casebacks.

The serial numbers of the movements start from 3.94 million, hypothetically placing some pieces in 1922. As in other cases, this serial number only means that these are movements that have been in storage for many years (see example of the Serbian) and therefore used a long time after their actual construction. In fact, movements with serial number 5.4 million are more commonly found, therefore produced around 1936/37.

The pieces verified during the research and with the movement serial number stamped inside the case back are:

serial number 3.94 million, anti-corrosion, assigned, enamel dial

serial number 5.6 million, anti-corrosion, not assigned

serial 5.66 million, anti-corrosion, unassigned

serial 5.57 million, anti-corrosion, unassigned

serial number 5.42 million, anti-corrosion, assigned, enamel dial

serial number 5.66 million, anti-corrosion, unassigned, enamel dial

serial number 5.463 million, anti-corrosion, unassigned, enamel dial

During the search, in the first series, in addition to the movement serial stamped inside the caseback, 4 pieces equipped with the 15.94 movement but with the reference serial stamped, exactly:

lot 20067 serial movement 3.94 million (anti-corrosion; not assigned)*

lot 19176 serial movement 3.9 million (anti-corrosion; unassigned)

lot 23313 movement serial number 7.11 million (stainless steel; unassigned; 3 pieces)*

lot 23684 movement serial number 7.43 million (stainless steel; unassigned; 2 pieces)*

As you can see, the two serial numbers with movement over 7 million lead one to think that the 15.94 was also used after the end of the Second World War, thus dispelling some clichés.
Edited:
 
Lépine
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Proof the "Majetek" engravings were done at Longines Factory as part of the order. If Longines say they did it on your watch, the watch was meant for the Czech Airforce. I recommend getting Longines Authentication done if in doubt.

W. Guth was the military agent for Czech Army for first generation and second.

IMG_7913.jpeg IMG_7914.jpeg
Edited:
 
Foo2rama
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One of the theories was the watches sold where being used to raise funds for the military in exile.

But ???
 
w154
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w154 w154
My 2nd series has the following extract…

The original serial number 6'643'xxx identifies a wristwatch in stainless steel bearing the reference 3582 and was called "Majetek". It is fitted with a Longines manually wound mechanical movement, caliber 15.26. It was invoiced on 17 November 1943 to the company Weinstabl, which was at that time our agent for Czechoslovakia and was dedicated to the Czechoslovakian Army.

@Seiji can I ask how you read this extract ? You mention Guth were the agent for first and second generation military Majetek, but this extract is for a second generation Majetek.

Lépine Seiji
Proof the "Majetek" engravings were done at Longines Factory as part of the order. If Longines say they did it on your watch, the watch was meant for the Czech Airforce. I recommend getting Longines Authentication done if in doubt.

W. Guth was the military agent for Czech Army for first generation and second.
 
Lépine
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w154 w154
@Seiji can I ask how you read this extract ? You mention Guth were the agent for first and second generation military Majetek, but this extract is for a second generation Majetek.

I see an additional agent for the military. But clearly when Longines was marking them , W. Gurth was an agent for the government orders. The top of the Heritage division wrote that.
Edited:
 
w154
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Lépine Seiji
Proof the "Majetek" engravings were done at Longines Factory as part of the order. If Longines say they did it on your watch, the watch was meant for the Czech Airforce. I recommend getting Longines Authentication done if in doubt.

W. Guth was the military agent for Czech Army for first generation and second.
Lépine Seiji
I see an additional agent for the military.

If I have time I’ll dig into the extracts to try and see whether Guth and Weinstabl were simultaneously agents, or whether the sole agent changed from Guth to Weinstabl at some point. It’s hard to know whether these “unmarked caseback” second generation examples are military or not.
 
Lépine
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Anyways, the take away should be two things from this discussion.
1) Longines did mark at some point the the first generation (15.94) and some of the second generation (15.26) watches with "Majetek..." if they were for the Czech Airforce.
2) W. Gurth is one confirmed government agent for the Czech Army (Czech Airforce).
3) Longines knows if your watch was ordered for the Czech Airforce for at least the first generation and possibly the second generation.

The rest of the story, I haven't hunted down because wasn't personally interested after I got my certification
with the military markings. Stephanie was at the time, the executive over the Heritage department and museum and the author of the Longines book they published when Walter was still the boss.
1256243-4bed4dbb89151566172722d717207cd0.jpg
Edited:
 
Lépine
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Here is one for Seelich delivery to the Czech Army in December 1948 (Communist Party already in power?) Was there still a Czech Airforce? February 1948 was the Czechoslovak coup d'état when the communists took over.

IMG_0038.jpeg IMG_0040.png IMG_0037.jpeg
Edited:
 
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