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Antiquorum - Another Neptune Seamaster Cloisonne

LouS
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That's about as prompt a response as I've ever seen. Your note was obviously effective.

I suppose it is on the buyer to request a condition report. I can't help thinking 'restored dial' or 'replaced dial' noted in the catalog description would be commendably transparent.
And it begs the question how a watch auction house rationalizes dealing in this type of piece.
 
cicindela
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By the way, the close up of the dial looks even worse in my eyes.
 
W
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LouS LouS
That's about as prompt a response as I've ever seen. Your note was obviously effective.

I suppose it is on the buyer to request a condition report. I can't help thinking 'restored dial' or 'replaced dial' noted in the catalog description would be commendably transparent.
And it begs the question how a watch auction house rationalizes dealing in this type of piece.

I take refinish dial seriously, sorry if my email sound little dramatic. As far as the condition report goes, Antiquorum has strange rating system look closely at the print or online catalog.
 
MSNWatch
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That dial looks terrible - clearly a crude attempt to recreate the original neptune dial.
 
jbibz
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In the U.K everything sold at auction is "sold as seen" in the sense that it is the buyers responsibility to satisfy themselves that the item has been described correctly but if you ask for a condition report and ask a specific question they are obliged to answer (to protect in integrity of the auction house) as long as they are given reasonable time to reply.Once this report is given it is far more binding than than the catalogue description. A re-dial can be described as an original Omega watch and they can if they choose stand by this description for some strange reason. However if you have asked for a condition report and also asked outright wether the dial is in original condition, re-furbished in any way you then force them to give what turns out to be be a pretty binding opinion. In the Ts and Cs of most physical auction houses it states that a wrongly given condition report allows you to return the item. The classic example of the difference between a catalogue description and a condition report lies with pottery. If you buy an item simply described as say a Clarice Cliff vase from 1920 then that is all they are obliged to sell you, if you then get it home and find out it has been badly restored and is worth half of what you paid for it then tough sh*t but if you have asked for a condition report stating any defects then you are covered whatever condition it turns out to be in. A lot of general sale auction houses probably do not know half the time if a certain piece is correct or not. So obviously always get a condition report! As for the bloody fees, well I have gone on enough already!
Regards Peter
 
dsio
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They do know its a redial, as reflected in the price, but after the Christies dial set a new record they're probably hoping this one can ride the coat-tails of the Christies Neptune to a decent commission. This watch is all about the dial, and the fact that they refer to it as "OMEGA REF. 2520 AUTOMATIC CLOISONNE ENAMEL DIAL" when what this watch REALLY is, is a Seamaster chronometer OT2520 indicates they're hoping people will fall for it being an original Cloisonne and consider it a bargain. The word Seamaster isn't even mentioned in the description, only Cloisonne over and over.

Its going to go higher than it should because someone or a few people will see it and impulse buy on the day, thinking they're getting the genuine article.
 
mondodec
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Just tuned in. Very interesting communications from the auction house. Dial is one of the worst Neptune's I've seen. There is a guy in Israel who does much better impersonations in real enamel cloisonné.

It does raise the issue of the fakes getting better (not this one) as Omega vintage values increase. Just as earlier Rolexes are totally risky without ironclad provenance, we're seeing better concoctions of railmasters and rancheros, early seamaster divers, and gold Omegas without complications. The last attempt to fake in pinchbeck a Grand Luxe Constellation was pretty poor (even though one or two serious collectors I know of got caught) but what about the next one?

I just hope we don't see the loss of confidence in the middle-middle - high-middle ends of the market that we have seen in other brands that have been the target of professional counterfeiters.

Cheers

Desmond.
 
dsio
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Just to point out, according to their own grading system, the lot is rated:

C 3-8 D 3-54-01 M 3* AAA

http://www.antiquorum.com/static/uploads/pdf/grading_system.pdf

Which means the case is in good condition but scratched.

According to them, the dial is a SERVICE DIAL, not a redial, (that's what 54 means). The hands are original (Hoi would disagree) the crown is original (I doubt it), and that overall it deserves a rating from Antiquorum's experts of AAA (The highest rating they give for a watch).
 
seamonster
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dsio dsio
Just to point out, according to their own grading system, the lot is rated:

C

3-8

D

3-54-01

M

3*

AAA

http://www.antiquorum.com/static/uploads/pdf/grading_system.pdf

Which means the case is in good condition but scratched.

According to them, the dial is a SERVICE DIAL, not a redial, (that's what 54 means). The hands are original (Hoi would disagree) the crown is original (I doubt it), and that overall it deserves a rating from Antiquorum's experts of AAA (The highest rating they give for a watch).

Respectable Member dsio

This is rather unexpected, especially more when it comes from one of the most established auction-houses. Had this watch be discovered listed on eBay, it is a daily encounter.

I can still remember correctly, some time in 1983 when Antiquorum first brought its entire collection for exhibition in Singapore, before the lots were auctioned in HK, then I was told that Mr Osvaldo Patrizzi, a lover and expert in vintage-watches, personally vetted all the vintage-watches, before accepting them to be auctioned. So much so, Antquorum managed to pip all the other great auction houses, like Sotheby's and Christie's, etc.

I think, once Antiquorum became Habsburg, Feldman Antiquorum, its standard of inspection and vetting took a beating.

Thank-you.
 
Trev
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It's not as if it's a re-dial with original artwork, it's a re-dial with a blatantly (poor) approximation of existing and well-known work. Based on the title, it sure feels like they're trying to represent it as an original.

If Antiquorum considers this sort of misleading practice acceptable, I'm telling everyone I know to avoid them. I'll cite this auction as the reason why.
 
U
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As watches, particularly vintage, get more & more popular this sort of shit will get more common. As mentioned earlier in this thread, AQ has sold some suspect Omegas in the past and this listing proves they have no intention of cleaning up their act.
 
gatorcpa
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U ulackfocus
As mentioned earlier in this thread, AQ has sold some suspect Omegas in the past and this listing proves they have no intention of cleaning up their act.

My feeling about AQ is that they ran off all their knowledgeable people years ago, probably due to cost cutting. Go look at all the forum archives from early 2007 regarding the OmegaMania auction. There were a number of undisclosed redials and fake dials among the watches offered in that auction and the Omega factory was involved!

I put zero stock in their auction descriptions anymore,
gatorcpa
 
seamonster
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cicindela cicindela
Gator of course has nailed it, as usual.
The more things change, the more they remain the same. All of this of course is nothing new and it has continued uninterrupted from inception to this day.
For those that like to reflect,
http://www.luxist.com/2007/10/10/the-wall-street-journal-looks-behind-the-curtain-at-antiquorum/

Respectable Member cicindela

Indeed the link is very interesting.

As a matter of interest, when did Omega try to restore its declining image: when it was the still the original Omega Bienne, Switzerland, or when this prestigious watch-house was taken over by Swatch?

Maybe I am just lucky, I cannot afford to buy any new Omega watches.

Thank-you.
 
U
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seamonster seamonster
As a matter of interest, when did Omega try to restore its declining image: when it was the still the original Omega Bienne, Switzerland, or when this prestigious watch-house was taken over by Swatch?

Omega merged with Tissot in 1930 to form SSIH.

Seiko supposedly tried to buy SSIH in the late 70's while they were having financial trouble.

In 1983 SSIH merged with a large movement maker ASUAG, which also owned Longines, Mido and a couple other brands.

In 1985, an investment group called SMH led by Hayek bought the whole kit & caboodle.

The company was renamed Swatch Group in 1998.


So the answer is yes, while they were under the control of Swatch.
 
seamonster
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U ulackfocus
Omega merged with Tissot in 1930 to form SSIH.

Seiko supposedly tried to buy SSIH in the late 70's while they were having financial trouble.

In 1983 SSIH merged with a large movement maker ASUAG, which also owned Longines, Mido and a couple other brands.

In 1985, an investment group called SMH led by Hayek bought the whole kit & caboodle.

The company was renamed Swatch Group in 1998.


So the answer is yes, while they were under the control of Swatch.


Respectable Member ulackfocus

I appreciate the answer.

Quote unquote the article, 'In the world of collectibles where value is determined by what people will pay, greed often takes over.'

Hopefully, this greed does not flow into those new watches, whether Omega or Longines, etc, currently produced by the Swatch Group. Generally in this modern world of today, perhaps honesty and integrity play a secondary role, when and where there is money to be made. Presumably, the beauty and quality of the newly-churned watches are only skin-deep.

Though not readily available, I will still go after the factory-original vintage-watches, if and when I hit the jackpot.

Thank-you.
 
dsio
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I'd actually argue that the direction Omega in particular is heading in now very much mirrors the Omega of the 1950s, there's a high emphasis on engineering, true watchmaking, and innovation, with the quality of their finishing on new models is exceptional. I think we're actually rather lucky to be around now during the second golden age of watchmaking.
 
U
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Respectable member (and all around good dude) seamonster,

Allow me to offer you another possibility. Why not look at watches that aren't quite vintage yet? A watch is at it's lowest value when it's between 10 and 30 years old depending on the brand. While some will never appreciate, the better brands with in-house movements often do. You could consider getting a couple quality watches so you and the watches can become vintage together.
 
seamonster
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U ulackfocus
Respectable member (and all around good dude) seamonster,

Allow me to offer you another possibility. Why not look at watches that aren't quite vintage yet? A watch is at it's lowest value when it's between 10 and 30 years old depending on the brand. While some will never appreciate, the better brands with in-house movements often do. You could consider getting a couple quality watches so you and the watches can become vintage together.

Respectable Member ulackfocus

I am already a vintage with a tropical 'dial'.

If I were to buy a new watch and put it on my wrist, it will be akin to a DOM, marrying a young lady, one quarter of his age. That being the case I opt to own a 60s Omega Seamaster diver watch model reference 166.024 with a big triangle and date. Even that, this watch is much younger that I am. So as to match my vintage appearance, I prefer the watch to be factory-original and aged, too. At all, no cosmetic-surgery to make it appear young, for its age.

Thank-you.
 
dsio
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This Neptune Cloisonne redial went for $6,875
 
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