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Syrte
·PS send them the link to this forum thread and tell them this is a top source of expertise cited by the New York Times; find the New York Times reference to Omega Forums.
An eBay delivery disaster
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bardamu
·Really sorry to hear what happened with the OP.
I would say if the person signed a name different than yours say it was Ebay’s fault to use a defective delivery system- and it’s their burden to show the watch was delivered to the correct person.
An item subject to authentication should not have been delivered using a delivery system where anybody and their mother can sign for a package.
This is exactly what I thought reading this sad story: how is that possible?
Hope the OP gets his refund.
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GuiltunderGlass
·I will just add, in my dealings in these types of situations keep persistently escalating up the chain of command to get to a decision maker / manager, etc. when you start getting some lackey repeating boilerplate to you that equals "sorry not sorry, but I can't help you". IME, eBay is not all bad with helping its customers, but I feel for you here.
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john_coburg
·This is exactly what I thought reading this sad story: how is that possible?
Hope the OP gets his refund.
Thanks all. I took advice of many and contacted the Citizen's Advice Bureau (the UK's consumer protection body) and interestingly [EDIT: after asking me who paid for the return, which was eBay] under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 the burden of proof is on eBay to prove it was delivered to me, not on me to prove it wasn’t. So they suggested I call them/write to their UK head office via recorded delivery/send email with read receipt giving them a nominal amount of time to deliver my item (e.g. 48hrs). If they cannot, then I can pursue them under the aforementioned CRA ’15 for the value of the item. Interestingly, and as part of this, I could ask them if they are willing to participate in a ADR (Alternative Dispute Resolution) scheme, whereby they agree to accept and abide by the rulings of a third party arbiter, but it needs eBay to agree to participate in the scheme.
This is at least encouraging, at the margin. Which route do members think I should go down: suggesting an ADR, or fight eBay myself? The ADR route is obviously risky, in case they rule in favour of eBay, but I don’t know how risky that is, and whether they typically side with buyers or sellers. Does it improve my chances or the opposite? It also got me thinking: perhaps scammers have worked this out as a loophole: buy a high value online, sign for it under a different name, and then file a complaint under CRA’15 claiming non-receipt. Not particularly complex, if someone was minded enough. I would have thought eBay would be aware of their exposure to this and by now would be wise to it, and have a 'defence mechanism' in place… unless they consider the odd settlement here and there to simply be the cost of doing business in the UK.
To be fair to eBay, when they told me to wait 8-15d while the investigation proceeds with UPS, they mentioned a couple of times they are aware I have been active with eBay for over 15yrs, and hence paid at least some lip service to my value to them as a customer. But then, the proof is in the pudding.
In the meantime, I think I have to painfully wait until 15bd are up (11-Nov-22), and then write my email/make my call.
Thoughts?
Edited:
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watchyouwant
·No email. Recorded delivery only ! I'd go the ADR route. Let them fight for you. Your understanding of legal proceedings will be not enough and eBay does not need that kind of attention from a government body.
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Syrte
·+1 on using formal registered mail letter to their headquarters.
Whether the ADR process is desirable depends completely on who’s organizing it under what rules of procedure, is there an appeal to the regular court system if you’re not satisfied?
Right now we know nothing - all of the important info is missing. No way to opine.
Whether the ADR process is desirable depends completely on who’s organizing it under what rules of procedure, is there an appeal to the regular court system if you’re not satisfied?
Right now we know nothing - all of the important info is missing. No way to opine.
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FreelanceWriter
·I'm afraid the recipient is SOL (at least as far as UPS is concerned, unless there's evidence of theft by an employee) because no specific recipient was designated. Be advised that USPS is no better. When I recently had my Speedmaster overhauled by Official Time Watch in Utah, they specifically sent it back Express Mail with "signature required" thinking that USPS would be safer than UPS and could be trusted with that. I was monitoring the status online and when it changed to "Delivered," I opened my apartment door and the box was just sitting in the hallway in front of my door. Of course, I'd have had a good case against USPS because it wasn't signed for by anybody; but on at least a half-dozen occasions, I've also had USPS deliveries marked "Delivered to Individual" and the detailed view actually showed a scribbled signature approximating my name that was literally forged by the USPS delivery person before it was left in my mailbox. I've also had packages go missing after being marked "Delivered In/At Mailbox"; so, it's always a risk using USPS, because if they mark it "Delivered In/At Mailbox," and it's deposited into the wrong mailbox (which also happens, sometimes), you're SOL unless the recipient chooses to notify you about the accidental receipt of your package.
Edited:
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watchyouwant
·I'm afraid the recipient is SOL (at least as far as UPS is concerned, unless there's evidence of theft by an employee) because no specific recipient was designated. Be advised that USPS is no better. When I recently had my Speedmaster overhauled by Official Time Watch in Utah, they specifically sent it back Express Mail with "signature required" thinking that USPS would be safer than UPS and could be trusted with that. I was monitoring the status online and when it changed to "Delivered," I opened my apartment door and the box was just sitting in the hallway in front of my door. Of course, I'd have had a good case against USPS because it wasn't signed for by anybody; but on at least a half-dozen occasions, I've also had USPS deliveries marked "Delivered to Individual" and the detailed view actually showed a scribbled signature approximating my name that was literally forged by the USPS delivery person before it was left in my mailbox. I've also had packages go missing after being marked "Delivered In/At Mailbox"; so, it's always a risk using USPS, because if they mark it "Delivered In/At Mailbox," and it's deposited into the wrong mailbox (which also happens, sometimes), you're SOL unless the recipient chooses to notify you about the accidental receipt of your package.
We are one step further. eBay will be responsible for safe delivery to the right recipient. Which is the OP, because eBay is the Legal entity, that choose to complicate matters with an eBay invented " Authenticator" in the middle of a sale process. So,.....
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Joe_A
·Reading this thread, I do hope the Citizens Advice Bureau UK effectively comes to the rescue. Their putting pressure on Ebay seems to be the best chance of getting a positive outcome.
Generally, it is the responsibility of the shipper to insure a shipment and even in a case where there is some fine print that may be in a contract among the parties (seller, authenticator/shipper and Ebay) there ought to be a provision where the seller either is afforded the opportunity to purchase insurance or may decline to insure. I don't see how the seller can be totally liable for loss if the loss was due to the negligence of a third party who did not consult with the seller concerning insurance. But, the devil may be hidden in the fine print.
I've been going in circles for a month trying to purchase effective insurance for a watch shipment. The worst kind of insurance to have is the kind where you believe yourself to have insurance only to discover it never existed.
I've been shipping watches out with the understanding that my business carrier would cover the loss, if any, as I have blanket coverage for individual shipments for up to $100,000 per shipment related to my business. Recently I discovered that, as watches are not part of my general business, none of my previous shipments were ever covered. I'd even purchased declared value coverage from FedEx above and beyond what I thought I had through my business only to eventually understand that declared value coverage is not actually insurance at all . . . and that FedEx rarely pays out anything significant for jewelry and watches although they cheerfully will collect a fee if you ask for the non-existent coverage.
I've been wanting to send a watch out for service from New York to Canada for the past month and have been in communication with Parcel Pro. They've indicated a willingness to allow me to open an account, but haven't actually done so as yet. They have rules to follow not unlike S***sus, but with a better reputation for payout upon loss. The watchmaker and I prefer to use FedEx, but Parcel Pro is owned by UPS and they prefer I use UPS. I'll go along with whatever they want me to do . . . so long as I can purchase real coverage.
Properly insuring a watch shipment seems to be a lot harder to accomplish than it ought to be.
~ Joe
Generally, it is the responsibility of the shipper to insure a shipment and even in a case where there is some fine print that may be in a contract among the parties (seller, authenticator/shipper and Ebay) there ought to be a provision where the seller either is afforded the opportunity to purchase insurance or may decline to insure. I don't see how the seller can be totally liable for loss if the loss was due to the negligence of a third party who did not consult with the seller concerning insurance. But, the devil may be hidden in the fine print.
I've been going in circles for a month trying to purchase effective insurance for a watch shipment. The worst kind of insurance to have is the kind where you believe yourself to have insurance only to discover it never existed.
I've been shipping watches out with the understanding that my business carrier would cover the loss, if any, as I have blanket coverage for individual shipments for up to $100,000 per shipment related to my business. Recently I discovered that, as watches are not part of my general business, none of my previous shipments were ever covered. I'd even purchased declared value coverage from FedEx above and beyond what I thought I had through my business only to eventually understand that declared value coverage is not actually insurance at all . . . and that FedEx rarely pays out anything significant for jewelry and watches although they cheerfully will collect a fee if you ask for the non-existent coverage.
I've been wanting to send a watch out for service from New York to Canada for the past month and have been in communication with Parcel Pro. They've indicated a willingness to allow me to open an account, but haven't actually done so as yet. They have rules to follow not unlike S***sus, but with a better reputation for payout upon loss. The watchmaker and I prefer to use FedEx, but Parcel Pro is owned by UPS and they prefer I use UPS. I'll go along with whatever they want me to do . . . so long as I can purchase real coverage.
Properly insuring a watch shipment seems to be a lot harder to accomplish than it ought to be.
~ Joe
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watchyouwant
·Whatever the Carrier charges you for whatever value you think have insured, jewellery/Watches are insured for around $500 . You need a Company like Brinks to ship. There are a few of these value couriers around. Expensive as well. But peace of mind. Auction houses use these guys, if you ship high value items.
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marco
·Whatever the Carrier charges you for whatever value you think have insured, jewellery/Watches are insured for around $500 . You need a Company like Brinks to ship. There are a few of these value couriers around. Expensive as well. But peace of mind. Auction houses use these guys, if you ship high value items.
This is very useful information. So the $1k insurance premium I was going to pay DHL just covers them for $500 & they cover the rest to me ?
I suppose they trust their own system and losses are few, pocketing the premium makes sense ?
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pdxleaf
·I took advice of many and contacted the Citizen's Advice Bureau (the UK's consumer protection body) and interestingly [EDIT: after asking me who paid for the return, which was eBay] under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 the burden of proof is on eBay to prove it was delivered to me, not on me to prove it wasn’t. So they suggested I call them/write to their UK head office via recorded delivery/send email with read receipt giving them a nominal amount of time to deliver my item (e.g. 48hrs). If they cannot, then I can pursue them under the aforementioned CRA ’15 for the value of the item.
Interestingly, and as part of this, I could ask them if they are willing to participate in a ADR (Alternative Dispute Resolution) scheme, whereby they agree to accept and abide by the rulings of a third party arbiter, but it needs eBay to agree to participate in the scheme.
This is at least encouraging, at the margin. Which route do members think I should go down: suggesting an ADR, or fight eBay myself?
Thoughts?
The law appears to be on your side, assuming they are correct.
Cite the reg, write the letter and email, informing them politely ("I'm a good customer of ebay and I know you and I are victims of this unfortunate situation, etc etc.)
See if they accept responsibility. They might decide to pay. They may say the proof is that UPS shows delivery. You'll of course disagree but magnanimously offer ADR. Hope they accept. ADR should know the CDR, which seems like it supports you, as there is no proof that it was delivered to you because you didn't get it. (Can you Google CDR 15 cases to find out how similar cases were resolved?)
ADR seems cheaper than a lawyer. EBAY has a staff of lawyers with nothing to do but deal with situations like this. All you got are a bunch of knuckleheads on a watch forum.
For what it's worth, that's my thoughts.
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joeshoup
·The watchmaker and I prefer to use FedEx, but Parcel Pro is owned by UPS and they prefer I use UPS. I'll go along with whatever they want me to do . . . so long as I can purchase real coverage.
Parcel Pro does have a FedEx option, it’s no hassle at all to select it. It’s a bit of work to set up an account, but worth it for the peace of mind imho. Why EBay would not use a proper insured shipping method such as ParcelPro boggles the mind…
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Syrte
·EBAY has a staff of lawyers with nothing to do but deal with situations like this. All you got are a bunch of knuckleheads
on a watch forum.
With respect, Ebay also has a business to run and which is struggling to compete with Amazon. If they are creating this authentication system because they want to reinvent themselves as sellers of high value items, they need sellers wanting to sell through them.
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perks713
·Can you give some details : which country are you in? UK? Value in pounds? Which carrier did you use to ship? And how exactly? Tracking plus signature of the person ? Any extra insurance? Did you ship to the buyer or the "Authenticator" ? Which country was the buyer in? Who shipped back to you via Ups and was the exact same method used, you shipped in the first place ? Person to person ? Jewellery/watches takes all the money you give them, but only refund $500ish... Was that explained to you? If the "Authenticator" is paid by eBay, eBay is the entity responsible. I sell quite a lot ; if anything is subject to an Authenticator, I cancel the deal. I know more about my items, than they do. As with other Fora, 3 day return policy, if not received as advertised and in the same condition. Let me know the answers to the above questions.....
Several of the above questions are answered in the first post. Are you offering to help in some way or are you just looking for a summary so you don't have to read the post?
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perks713
·* Then the real problem kicks in. He sends it back with UPS, but nothing arrives. I check the tracking ID and apparently it has been delivered to my address (a shared flat in a house, which has plenty of mail order packages arriving all the time, signed for on Weds 11:30 by a certain 'Macgill' - never heard of him/her.
I ordered a FOIS about a year ago and the authenticator shipped it UPS to my house. The package was sent w/o requirement of a signature to deliver. I was out of town and a $4000 watch was sitting on my front steps. Luckily a friend was able to run over and scoop it up for me. I meant to lodge a complaint with ebay just to try and prevent similar issues in the future but by the time I got home I didn't want to deal with the hassle.
Sorry you're having to deal with all this, best luck getting it resolved!
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JohnSteed
·I had this question, which you answered @Scarecrow ^ Thanks!
Recently eBay forced all sellers to transition their accounts to comply with eBay's new payment system "eBay Payout", which meant directly connecting a bank account to my eBay account. Once an item sells, eBay wires it directly to my bank account. Like @watchyouwant said above, I created a completely stand alone separate bank account for this. Purely just for eBay payouts. However, in my case, it would not have mattered if I had transferred the money out. The first (correct) refund of $1,500 brought my account to a $0 balance. The second (error) refund of $1,500 brought my account to a (negative) -$1,500 balance.
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JohnSteed
·Tough situation, @john_coburg
While you may look to avail yourself of any legal recourse, think you might need to pester the dickens out of ebay and ups, every day, until you cant any longer / to your desired conclusion. Good luck!!
While you may look to avail yourself of any legal recourse, think you might need to pester the dickens out of ebay and ups, every day, until you cant any longer / to your desired conclusion. Good luck!!
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