An eBay delivery disaster

Scarecrow Boat · Oct 22, 2022

john_coburg
So did something similar happen with you? Was there a delivery firm involved, too?

No, my experience was over something very different (happened earlier this year). I did just purchase something that went through an authenticator, which is how I know about their packaging.

In my case, I sold an item for $1,500 and the buyer wanted to return it. I issued a refund the day I received the item back and received an eBay confirmation both in the eBay portal and via email. A week later I get a message saying the buyer opened up a claim against me stating I never refunded them. I messaged them with a screenshot showing refund confirmation showing the date a week prior and asked they confirm they had not received anything. The next day eBay withdraws $1,500 from my bank account twice in two separate transactions. The $1,500 should have only been taken once. Each transaction with a unique eBay numerical identifier and "refund" in the name. I message the buyer again asking if they were refunded and if so for how much. They acknowledge they received $1,500. My account, however, was out $3,000. I spent the next 4 months fighting with eBay showing bank statements showing both refund withdraws and email confirmation from eBay that my initial refund was successful.eBay acknowledged there was a glitch in their system because I received a refund confirmation, which should have closed out the return process yet their system shows I never refunded the buyer and that the case was still open, hence the buyer being able to open a claim against me. They said I was protected due to the conflicting information I received however, they could only see one refund transaction from my bank account. They could not find the second one, despite my bank statements clearly showing it. Over the next four months I repeatedly heard the 8-15 day time frame and to give them patience. I often never heard a follow up on day 16 or 17 so I started pushing daily. Made a number of multi hour phone calls regularly being escalated to the next supervisor. They insisted I was not deducted twice and I felt like I was banging my head into a wall showing them I was. Showing two uniquely identified refund transactions for the exact same amount taken on the exact same day. They acknowledged my bank reflected this and told me the issue was with my bank because they have no record of this on their end. I kept persisting and after being transferred to an accounting department that could research this live while I was on the phone, eBay made right. The buyer was obviously refunded the $1,500 and I had the sold item in my hands. eBay refunded me the entire $3,000. This was the last time I will ever sell anything on eBay.

Going back to my initial comment, keep pushing.

JwRosenthal · Oct 22, 2022

UPS lost a $6k camera I purchased for work. The vendor had to file a claim, they denied saying it was delivered even though the signature was nobody in my agency. We escalated as high and we could go, UPS dug their heels in saying it was delivered- case closed- we had no other recourse.
The vendor refunded me but was out the product and the money. 6 weeks later I got a phone call from from another agency in the area- the box had been dumped in their doorway, luckily the person looked up my name and agency was able to find me.
I hope you have a similar outcome but the amount of time and stress the situation caused both the vendor and myself can’t be recovered.
.

noelekal · Oct 22, 2022

john_coburg; Hassle the hooey out of 'em!

I hassled them over a piddling amount and ultimately obtained satisfaction. It took over 30 days of hassling however. I was ultimately credited my costs, but I remain loath to shop Ebay at this point.

Here's a portion of the exchanges we had on their "help:" feature. An effective Ebay phone number is difficult to locate and is of no help at all when found and contacted.

______________________________

Hello Bryan,

We appreciate the time you have given us to review your concern for the ONEIDA Stainless Satin ACT I Set Of 5 NEW DINNER FORKS/KNIVES(*******************) sold by ************. My name is Clarence and I would like to provide you options you can consider to resolve your concern.

I understand you did not receive your item/s personally because of empty box and given your seller is an elder this is still not the experience I would like you to have as a buyer.

We most certainly would not want this to happen again in the future but in case you will need to return an item that is faulty, defective, damaged or not as described, it will be best to follow escalating the case within time frame. Let us focus on your options :

1) Get in touch with the seller for the last time so that you can try to work things out together. One of the principles that eBay stands on is that “there is good in every individual”. Successful transactions rely heavily on good communication. You can continue communicating with the seller and request for a refund.

2) You also still have the right to open a claim or dispute with the carrier.

3) I recommend exploring your external options or use any methods outside of e-bay's policy to fully maximize your buyer protection.

I trust we are able to explain everything clearly, and I am confident you next shopping experience will be worry free.

Sincerely,

Clarence M.
eBay Customer Support

___________________________

Following, in reverse order are a portion of the piecemeal replies required because of the stunted chat line help message system. I was credited after the final message at the bottom, sent with a second series of photographs.

____________________________

Ok, we're "focusing on our options here.

"1) Get in touch with the seller for the last time so that you can try to work things out together. One of the principles that eBay stands on is that “there is good in every individual”. Successful transactions rely heavily on good communication. You can continue communicating with the seller and request for a refund."

Unacceptable. I have contacted seller for my last time weeks ago. You refund me now and you contact the seller to work things out.

"2) You also still have the right to open a claim or dispute with the carrier."

I've already made the attempt and the post office informed me that it was up to the shipper, your seller, to open a claim and that I could not open the claim.

"3) I recommend exploring your external options or use any methods outside of e-bay's policy to fully maximize your buyer protection.

I recommend that you explore your policies and the honoring of the protections you claim to extend to customers. I'm receiving no protections at present.

Again: I received an empty mailer with no merchandise within. Seller became evasive and reluctant to provide a refund by the last messages we exchanged. During a telephone conversation held with an Ebay representative, Ebay stepped in and promised to resolve it and refund me, but then mistakenly instructed me to return the merchandise. There was no merchandise. I'm out $68.74 with nothing to show for it and Ebay is contributing to the loss by: not providing proper refund, closing my dispute, and not dealing with the seller.

What are you going to do about it?
____________________________

I have not been refunded for an order No. ***************. Both seller and more importantly Ebay have botched this from the beginning as may be seen in a review of my message log.

Ebay told me: "You can continue communicating with the seller and request for a refund."

I have already been communication with this seller and will not further communicate with this seller.

I expect Ebay to honor their commitment to their customers now and refund my costs associated with this failed transaction.

____________________________

Do not foist me off with a canned reply stating that this issue is closed. It's not closed! If it is then I intend to rate seller poorly. Furthermore, I am going to rate Ebay poorly within the hobby forums I participate. I never received merchandise! It is time for Ebay to refund me. Ebay's "help" system is no help at all. It is obviously designed to deliberately thwart rather than help customers. If this is the way Ebay treats its buyers then I must assume that the Ebay venue is too risky to warrant my continued use Ebay.

__________________________

It's apparent from this obstructive "help" function that Ebay just wants me to go away and accept the loss of $68.74.

Seller botched the transaction by providing a wholly inadequate shipping container. Ebay botched resolving this dispute by mistakenly assuming I had merchandise to return. I received an empty mailer tube in my mail box. There were no contents. I've sent photos to Ebay. I can send them again.

______________________________

"Buyers and sellers permit us to make final decisions about all cases, including appeals"

I realize that I have no effective recourse with Ebay in obtaining a refund for the items I never received. I do have control over my Ebay account however, which was opened in 1999. I can discontinue using that account. I also can derive $68.74 worth of satisfaction in future by denouncing Ebay, the financial risks associated with its use, and the lack of any real customer service provided by Ebay.

I'm only a squeaky wheel here for so long. If this is not resolved to my satisfaction by the weekend then I intend to leave poor feedback about your seller, ***********. I further intend to to discourage those who would consider using Ebay. I will adopt the habit of disparaging Ebay, its costs, its management, and its lack of customer support, on internet hobby forums that I enjoy frequenting.

I have been a good Ebay customer and championed Ebay since my first buying experiences with Ebay. I have defended Ebay in internet hobby forums when people disparaged it. I have never before given a bad review to the many Ebay sellers that I've encountered through the years.

Does Ebay need for me to continue as a buyer and a friend, or is Ebay willing to accept that I will attempt to drive business away from it going forward?

For $68.74?!

This is the empty mailer exactly as received when the post office delivered it to our home address.
View attachment 1495651

Walrus · Oct 22, 2022

I don’t have much to add but my wife has sold a hundred or so items on eBay and it seems quite common people are trying to get a discount. They will complain about some little thing so we say “no problem send it back” but they want to keep it just not at the price paid. Some have been legit, I sold an antique world globe that had a small dent in it the globe itself was made in a manner that had raised topography I thought it was just part of that. Buyer pointed out it was in the Atlantic Ocean ha ha.

But ups they are incredibly inept at times. I had bought a nice watch strap and got a delivery notification. I looked all over for small box I couldn’t find it. I was going to make a call find out what happened but I had six bags of mulch outside my garage door I needed to move as rain was coming. The delivery guy actually stuck the watch strap box in-between bags of mulch.

Now in a way it was good as it was a windy day and that little box might have got carried away, But give me an idea of where you put the damn strap I hate hide and seek at my age.

I hope things are sorted out I had several watches go missing when I was shipping internationally someone somewhere got quite a few seamasters for free from me.

cchen · Oct 22, 2022

Could you possibly ask the UPS delivery person? UPS comes around my neighborhood generally around the same time every day and usually is the same driver.

Olhenry56 · Oct 22, 2022

Might be worth a Google search of the signee's name, Macgill, and your postal/zip/etc code. You may come up with some kind of a lead.

Best wishes. I hate that this happened.

watchyouwant · Oct 22, 2022

Can you give some details : which country are you in? UK? Value in pounds? Which carrier did you use to ship? And how exactly? Tracking plus signature of the person ? Any extra insurance? Did you ship to the buyer or the "Authenticator" ? Which country was the buyer in? Who shipped back to you via Ups and was the exact same method used, you shipped in the first place ? Person to person ? Jewellery/watches takes all the money you give them, but only refund $500ish... Was that explained to you? If the "Authenticator" is paid by eBay, eBay is the entity responsible. I sell quite a lot ; if anything is subject to an Authenticator, I cancel the deal. I know more about my items, than they do. As with other Fora, 3 day return policy, if not received as advertised and in the same condition. Let me know the answers to the above questions.....

Wuza72 · Oct 23, 2022

I feel sorry for you.

I had the same problem in Germany. However, my loss was still limited in comparison.

I'll make it short, the seller had a proof of delivery, the signature was a scribble, it was definitely no one from my neighborhood.

Both PayPal and eBay have seen this as proof that everything has gone properly. They were then both out of the game very quickly.

Even when the seller's account was deleted shortly after the disaster, this was probably not enough evidence for eBay to get to the bottom of the matter again.

I then also reported the incident to the German police to give the matter a serious background.

In the end, I received compensation from a German arbitration center in the amount of 100 €, so I was left sitting on 500 €.

Best
Wuza

Larry S · Oct 23, 2022

Did you not have a chance to dictate how this watch was returned to you? That would have been insured, hold for pickup, signature required. I once had UPS leave a $3k camera on my stoop despite clear, signature required, directions. I never allow watches to be delivered to my house. I’m sorry you had this happen and I hope you find resolution.

felsby · Oct 23, 2022

Scarecrow Boat
No, my experience was over something very different (happened earlier this year). I did just purchase something that went through an authenticator, which is how I know about their packaging.

In my case, I sold an item for $1,500 and the buyer wanted to return it. I issued a refund the day I received the item back and received an eBay confirmation both in the eBay portal and via email. A week later I get a message saying the buyer opened up a claim against me stating I never refunded them. I messaged them with a screenshot showing refund confirmation showing the date a week prior and asked they confirm they had not received anything. The next day eBay withdraws $1,500 from my bank account twice in two separate transactions. The $1,500 should have only been taken once. Each transaction with a unique eBay numerical identifier and "refund" in the name. I message the buyer again asking if they were refunded and if so for how much. They acknowledge they received $1,500. My account, however, was out $3,000. I spent the next 4 months fighting with eBay showing bank statements showing both refund withdraws and email confirmation from eBay that my initial refund was successful.eBay acknowledged there was a glitch in their system because I received a refund confirmation, which should have closed out the return process yet their system shows I never refunded the buyer and that the case was still open, hence the buyer being able to open a claim against me. They said I was protected due to the conflicting information I received however, they could only see one refund transaction from my bank account. They could not find the second one, despite my bank statements clearly showing it. Over the next four months I repeatedly heard the 8-15 day time frame and to give them patience. I often never heard a follow up on day 16 or 17 so I started pushing daily. Made a number of multi hour phone calls regularly being escalated to the next supervisor. They insisted I was not deducted twice and I felt like I was banging my head into a wall showing them I was. Showing two uniquely identified refund transactions for the exact same amount taken on the exact same day. They acknowledged my bank reflected this and told me the issue was with my bank because they have no record of this on their end. I kept persisting and after being transferred to an accounting department that could research this live while I was on the phone, eBay made right. The buyer was obviously refunded the $1,500 and I had the camera in my hands. eBay refunded me the entire $3,000. This was the last time I will ever sell anything on eBay.

Going back to my initial comment, keep pushing.

Terrifying.
How was eBay able to access your bank account? Via PayPal?

watchyouwant · Oct 23, 2022

PayPal/eBay/ bankaccounts : Rule number one: have a special Bank account for these payments. Do NOT link credit cards to that one. Just link as backup for eBay/ PayPal another account with next to nothing in it. If you sell and get paid, remove the money instantly. Have only a few $$$ in it and if you buy, transfer the amount needed.

Larry S · Oct 23, 2022

watchyouwant
PayPal/eBay/ bankaccounts : Rule number one: have a special Bank account for these payments. Do NOT link credit cards to that one. Just link as backup for eBay/ PayPal another account with next to nothing in it. If you sell and get paid, remove the money instantly. Have only a few $$$ in it and if you buy, transfer the amount needed.

Great advice but I’d also add that for this account, do not set it up with automatic transfers.

Scarecrow Boat · Oct 23, 2022

felsby
Terrifying.
How was eBay able to access your bank account? Via PayPal?

Recently eBay forced all sellers to transition their accounts to comply with eBay's new payment system "eBay Payout", which meant directly connecting a bank account to my eBay account. Once an item sells, eBay wires it directly to my bank account. Like @watchyouwant said above, I created a completely stand alone separate bank account for this. Purely just for eBay payouts. However, in my case, it would not have mattered if I had transferred the money out. The first (correct) refund of $1,500 brought my account to a $0 balance. The second (error) refund of $1,500 brought my account to a (negative) -$1,500 balance.

Mark020 · Oct 23, 2022

I quit selling on Ebay. Paypal is too big a risk for me nowadays. C24 has a flat fee and bank payment. It will still have risks for me as a seller but that's worth the upside I think.

Syrte · Oct 23, 2022

Really sorry to hear what happened with the OP.
I would say if the person signed a name different than yours say it was Ebay’s fault to use a defective delivery system- and it’s their burden to show the watch was delivered to the correct person.

An item subject to authentication should not have been delivered using a delivery system where anybody and their mother can sign for a package.

If they want to argue there’s fine print in their agreement that they were allowed to use such method- then look up consumer protection agency and consumer protection laws in the UK.
The fine print should not be binding.(at least in parts of EU- and Uk laws probably haven’t had time to change).

If there’s a consumer protection agency in the UK, you shoulf file a complaint.
no reasonable individual can defend the notion a major corporation making money from commissions would ship a watch worth £3500 without a service requiring proof the delivery was to the actual recipient.

In your place I would be fuming, I think you could argue they’re defrauding the British public with their hidden terms.

john_coburg · Oct 23, 2022

watchyouwant
Can you give some details : which country are you in? UK? Value in pounds? Which carrier did you use to ship? And how exactly? Tracking plus signature of the person ? Any extra insurance? Did you ship to the buyer or the "Authenticator" ? Which country was the buyer in? Who shipped back to you via Ups and was the exact same method used, you shipped in the first place ? Person to person ? Jewellery/watches takes all the money you give them, but only refund $500ish... Was that explained to you? If the "Authenticator" is paid by eBay, eBay is the entity responsible. I sell quite a lot ; if anything is subject to an Authenticator, I cancel the deal. I know more about my items, than they do. As with other Fora, 3 day return policy, if not received as advertised and in the same condition. Let me know the answers to the above questions.....

Thanks @watchyouwant. In answer to your questions:
I'm in the UK.
Item was sold for £3,300
I shipped to the authenticator with Royal Mail, the authenticator sent back with UPS, with their 'Adult Signature Required', which is different to the their 'Adult Signature Addressee restricted' service, which requires the recipient to actually live at the addressee's address. (which surely should be standard?!), apparently without insurance.
"Jewellery/watches takes all the money you give them, but only refund $500ish... Was that explained to you?" - not sure i follow this part?

I sell a lot on eBay too...but i believe anything over £1k is automatically required to be subject to the Authenticity Guarantee...i've generally had a good service from them. Something i sold was authenticated, went to the buyer, who tried to send it back to me...but the authenticator (seeing it for a second time) told him he was wrong, sent it back to him, ruling in my favour. I was surprised, but relieved.

The entire authentication process is paid for by eBay, so i'm coming to the view that eBay are to blame here, ultimately for not ensuring my item got safely back to me. Yes, UPS messed up, but their product ('Adult Signature Required') is inherently flawed, and hence technically may even have succeeded in what it was meant to do (simply deliver to my address, and get anyone's signature).... so eBay should have ensured (and paid up for) a better delivery product. I think that's my only line of argument. Will it wash? I don't know. For a few hundred quid, maybe. But for £3,300, i think they're going to really dig in. If anyone has any advice here (do i even have a legal case to threaten?), it would be very much appreciated.

Tony C. · Oct 23, 2022

This probably won't help, but ~five years ago I won a very nice vintage 18k chronometre on eBay, and had it shipped to a friend in Brooklyn as I was out of the country. The address was on my account, and Paypal, so that was not an issue. The watch showed as having been delivered and signed for, but that never happened, at least at the correct address.

So...I fought persistently and hard, and was eventually able to get eBay to refund my money. I suspect that it would be more difficult today, and I spent plenty of time arguing with supervisors on the phone, but eventually they gave in. I suppose the take-away is that there may be also be a chance, no matter how slim, in your case.

As a final note, I would argue that the lack of full insurance on the shipment from the authenticator is completely indefensible.

watchyouwant · Oct 23, 2022

Syrte
Really sorry to hear what happened with the OP.
I would say if the person signed a name different than yours say it was Ebay’s fault to use a defective delivery system- and it’s their burden to show the watch was delivered to the correct person.

An item subject to authentication should not have been delivered using a delivery system where anybody and their mother can sign for a package.

If they want to argue there’s fine print in their agreement that they were allowed to use such method- then look up consumer protection agency and consumer protection laws in the UK.
The fine print should not be binding.(at least in parts of EU- and Uk laws probably haven’t had time to change).

If there’s a consumer protection agency in the UK, you shoulf file a complaint.
no reasonable individual can defend the notion a major corporation making money from commissions would ship a watch worth £3500 without a service requiring proof the delivery was to the actual recipient.

In your place I would be fuming, I think you could argue they’re defrauding the British public with their hidden terms.

that's what I did. Australia has a very good customer protection safe guard. I had a PayPal/ eBay chargeback problem and reported both companies to Apra. They demanded all by laws from eBay and PayPal with comply and fine print. Short timeline. I told eBay and PayPal, that I had contacted the Law firm Maurice Blackburn regarding a class action of many PayPal users here in Australia in lockstep with Apra oitcome. They reversed within days and apologized to me. PayPal was taken to court here before and is very cautious now. Let these agencies do the work for you. Good luck !

john_coburg · Oct 24, 2022

Syrte
Really sorry to hear what happened with the OP.
I would say if the person signed a name different than yours say it was Ebay’s fault to use a defective delivery system- and it’s their burden to show the watch was delivered to the correct person.

An item subject to authentication should not have been delivered using a delivery system where anybody and their mother can sign for a package.

If they want to argue there’s fine print in their agreement that they were allowed to use such method- then look up consumer protection agency and consumer protection laws in the UK.
The fine print should not be binding.(at least in parts of EU- and Uk laws probably haven’t had time to change).

If there’s a consumer protection agency in the UK, you shoulf file a complaint.
no reasonable individual can defend the notion a major corporation making money from commissions would ship a watch worth £3500 without a service requiring proof the delivery was to the actual recipient.

In your place I would be fuming, I think you could argue they’re defrauding the British public with their hidden terms.

Thanks, @Syrte. This is a very good summary of what I'm thinking here. It's eBay that are at fault, as technically it would at least appear that UPS have delivered, even though there's a risk they haven't (which probably can't be proved), that's for eBay to sort out, not me.
Although, with this much money at risk....it'll surely all be down to me.
If anyone else has a similar problem or has had a similar problem, please let me know, as i could threaten a class action suit to eBay, if they don't refund me after 15 days. Perhaps that might carry some weight.

Syrte · Oct 24, 2022

john_coburg
Thanks, @Syrte. This is a very good summary of what I'm thinking here. It's eBay that are at fault, as technically it would at least appear that UPS have delivered, even though there's a risk they haven't (which probably can't be proved), that's for eBay to sort out, not me.
Although, with this much money at risk....it'll surely all be down to me.
If anyone else has a similar problem or has had a similar problem, please let me know, as i could threaten a class action suit to eBay, if they don't refund me after 15 days. Perhaps that might carry some weight.

this amount is small potatoes for Ebay - you should not let go. Tell them you will not relent until you expose their shady business practice, and get the authorities to shut down their UK business. They can’t be sticking to their guns in a case like this. They have been negligent with your property after they tried to take a commission from you. Tell them you’ll go to the media; they will never get people to sell expensive items if that’s the way they treat valuables; tell them everyone will go to other auction sites and they will be left selling 20 euros plates.

I’m sure they’d rather compromise.

PS You shd not neglect the power of consumer protection agencies. I had success in France using that tool against a foreign company doing business here, I’m sure Ebay doesn’t want somebody poking their nose into their business practixes although it looks like it’s high time for someone to do so. And the bigger the company, the more successful you will be. Government agencies dont have time to prosecute every small offender but if it’s a big fish that’s bullying consumers then the taxpayers money is put to good use when they go after them as there will be lots of people affected.

An eBay delivery disaster

Scarecrow Boat

JwRosenthal

noelekal

Walrus

cchen

Olhenry56

watchyouwant

Wuza72

Larry S

felsby

watchyouwant

Larry S

Scarecrow Boat

Mark020

Syrte

john_coburg

Tony C.

watchyouwant

john_coburg

Syrte

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