An eBay delivery disaster

JwRosenthal · Nov 25, 2022

Syrte
Very glad for you they saw the light,
And that the recovery was not exceedingly painful.
This also goes to show consumer protection laws are important and powerful.

This is something I am not clear on- are there consumer protection laws in some or most countries when it comes to services like shipping (I am truly ignorant). When I had the lost $6k camera debacle with UPS, they said they “delivered” it even though it was to be delivered to a federal screening facility with full time staff, CCTV and full scanning and check in of every package. Despite our “evidence” to the contrary, they said “we have it marked as delivered- sorry, burden is on you to prove it wasn’t”….what the actual fυck?!?!
The vendor did indeed have the package insured with a third party who was happy to pay the claim IF UPS would just admit they lost the package- which they wouldn’t. So he got screwed even though it wouldn’t have cost UPS anything.
Luckily it did magically appear in a random doorway 6 weeks later after they were notified that a police report had been filed and the Inspector General was investigating possible fraud/theft.

kkt · Nov 25, 2022

Their employees are probably instructed to say the burden is on the customer. It may not be true, but it's to the companies advantage, and lying isn't illegal unless it's sworn testimony.

john_coburg · Nov 26, 2022

Some thoughts on this:

JwRosenthal
are there consumer protection laws in some or most countries when it comes to services like shipping

Think it likely varies. The UK still has a lot of EU law in place in this regard, (even post-Brexit), which leans to the left of the US, and therefore tends to favour the consumer over the retailer. I think research is needed wherever you reside, as i'm sure it will vary wildly.

JwRosenthal
When I had the lost $6k camera debacle with UPS, they said they “delivered” it even though it was to be delivered to a federal screening facility with full time staff, CCTV and full scanning and check in of every package. Despite our “evidence” to the contrary, they said “we have it marked as delivered- sorry, burden is on you to prove it wasn’t”….what the actual fυck?!?! .

Did you look up whether they were actually factually correct in saying this? Or was it potentially a fob off/lie ? eBay didn't tell me about the CRA'15, i called the Citizens Advice Bureau (who i typically associate as a service for busybodies with nothing better to do), who were actually very succinct and practical in where my rights were and what i should do.

JwRosenthal
The vendor did indeed have the package insured with a third party who was happy to pay the claim IF UPS would just admit they lost the package- which they wouldn’t.

I can well imagine this - extremely annoying. I actually had a similar situation 4 or 5 years ago but with a far smaller amount involved: Royal Mail said they'd delivered it, but probably knew they hadn't, but wouldn't admit it, so the seller couldn't claim on insurance without an admission, so i was stuffed. Admission of guilt is seemingly a big deal, for some reason.

I'm glad it worked out in the end though... $6k would have been a very painful loss.

How about the delivery firm gives the intended recipient a 5 digit code, that they need to quote to the deliverer who arrives (who himself doesn't know it)... he keys it in to his electric box and if the code matches, they release the package and it's considered delivered.
I guess the problem is, it would make it harder and slower for delivery firms to deliver stuff.... and they don't seem to be the ones who are on the hook in case of a fυck-up, so there's no incentive for them to fix things. Not sure how we create that incentive. Perhaps vendors with sufficient power need to put more pressure on them to improve their services, else they go elsewhere... but then why wouldn't that have happened already? who knows..

john_coburg · Nov 26, 2022

kkt
Their employees are probably instructed to say the burden is on the customer. It may not be true, but it's to the companies advantage, and lying isn't illegal unless it's sworn testimony.

Interesting. Even on a recorded phoneline? Surely there is a law against lying to consumers. Isn't it fraud?

john_coburg · Nov 26, 2022

Thanks for the sentiments, @Joe_A.

Joe_A
had it not, I believe that, for the first time, a watch that I have sent out has been properly insured during transit and I would have been financially protected in the case of loss, though the watch is so rare, it would not be directly replaceable.

But (and not to unduly scare) what if it was signed for at the other end, by someone else? As happened with me! Or the driver nicked it, and 'signed' for it? What would the insurer do when you call them and ask to be paid out? Wouldn't they say "Err sorry, it says it was delivered and we have an audit trail to prove it. You don't have evidence it wasn't delivered, so I'm afraid I don't believe your story... so no payout (you chancer!!)"

That's the nightmare scenario. You paid for insurance, yet don't get a payout if it goes missing.

Evitzee · Nov 26, 2022

I've had several watches sent via FedEx where the shipper would only ship as far as the closest FedEx Shipping Center and then I would have to drive 25 miles to pick it up, after showing ID. A Speedmaster sent by Nesbit's in Seattle last year was sent this way, evidently their insurance policy does not allow the final delivery to be made by the driver. Maybe to prevent driver theft, or more likely to prevent delivery to a wrong address or left at an address where no one was at home, or left with whatever human being is wandering around.

I've never had any poor delivery service from FedEx, UPS or DHL, or the USPS, in the 19 years I've lived in my current house, everything got delivered, nothing went missing permanently. A couple made some excursions to a different city en route, but they got to me.in the end. I think delivery experiences in the bigger cities is probably worse overall compared to delivery in smaller cities. Just 12,000 souls in my town.

JwRosenthal · Nov 26, 2022

Evitzee
I've had several watches sent via FedEx where the shipper would only ship as far as the closest FedEx Shipping Center and then I would have to drive 25 miles to pick it up, after showing ID. A Speedmaster sent by Nesbit's in Seattle last year was sent this way, evidently their insurance policy does not allow the final delivery to be made by the driver. Maybe to prevent driver theft, or more likely to prevent delivery to a wrong address or left at an address where no one was at home, or left with whatever human being is wandering around.

I would be totally fine with that, but they seem to totally disregard basic delivery instruction like “signature required”. I was told by UPS that “due to Covid”, the driver had the choice to just dump and go regardless if sig was required (they put “C19” in the sig box).
If they followed even that one (which we pay for), this wouldn’t be nearly as much of an issue.

Evitzee · Nov 26, 2022

JwRosenthal
I would be totally fine with that, but they seem to totally disregard basic delivery instruction like “signature required”. I was told by UPS that “due to Covid”, the driver had the choice to just dump and go regardless if sig was required (they put “C19” in the sig box).
If they followed even that one (which we pay for), this wouldn’t be nearly as much of an issue.

The world got lazy and sloppy with the Covid excuses, along with "supply chain issues", to explain away poor goods availability and lousy services, and they still are using this crutch when they can. In your "C19" example that is just lazy management, but much management was exposed as lazy and incompetent over the last three years.

kkt · Nov 26, 2022

john_coburg
Interesting. Even on a recorded phoneline? Surely there is a law against lying to consumers. Isn't it fraud?

Doesn't it require 2-party consent to record them? (I don't know, I am not a lawyer, but they might direct their employees not to speak for recordings.)

I've had very good experiences having packages sent FedEx for pickup at a FedEx Office location near me. It's a location they deliver to every day so they probably won't get the address wrong, they scan them in at the FedEx Office, and they check my photo ID before handing it over (as well as me having to know the tracking number). Also since there are other FedEx employees there, the driver won't use the "softpitch it in the general direction of the door" method of delivery.

JwRosenthal · Nov 26, 2022

Joe_A · Nov 27, 2022

john_coburg
Thanks for the sentiments, @Joe_A.

But (and not to unduly scare) what if it was signed for at the other end, by someone else? As happened with me! Or the driver nicked it, and 'signed' for it? What would the insurer do when you call them and ask to be paid out? Wouldn't they say "Err sorry, it says it was delivered and we have an audit trail to prove it. You don't have evidence it wasn't delivered, so I'm afraid I don't believe your story... so no payout (you chancer!!)"

That's the nightmare scenario. You paid for insurance, yet don't get a payout if it goes missing.

In the case of Parcel Pro, the firm clearly leans on the shipper to use UPS from start to finish. They are owned by UPS. If you put your package in their hands from start to finish and then one of their own drivers screws up, I think you'd have a good chance of collecting in full.

There is a bias on the part of many to use Federal Express over UPS even when insuring with Parcel Pro. It seems to me that the case would be somewhat more fraught when any third party is involved,

In the case of my own recent shipment, the recipient told me flat-out that "UPS does not deliver to my address" and "if you want me to service your watch, please use FedEx only."

I suppose that risk can be mitigated, but never filly eliminated.

An eBay delivery disaster

JwRosenthal

kkt

john_coburg

john_coburg

john_coburg

Evitzee

JwRosenthal

Evitzee

kkt

JwRosenthal

Joe_A

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