American Made - When Elgin made watches with a US automatic movement

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Pascal S

·Jun 12, 2022

In the early phase of my watch collecting days, I bought a lot of things on impulse. A unique look that spoke to me, or an interesting history, was often enough to make me pull the trigger. And that was the case with this watch.

I was intrigued with the possibility of owning a true American automatic wristwatch when I read that Elgin had sold a series of watches in the late 1950s and early 1960s with their own calibre 760/761 movement. So I enthusiastically bought the first one I could find on eBay. I got lucky though, because it turned out to be a pretty clean example with no nasty hidden surprise.

Here is my little Elgin:






Anyone else here has one of these?

 

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wagudc

·Jun 12, 2022

Pascal S

Anyone else here has one of these?

I don't have one, but I like it! I was aware of their existence, but have not come across one. Thanks for sharing.

 

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Waltesefalcon

·Jun 12, 2022

Elgin is not my favorite American brand (Hamilton or Illinois is), but I've always been impressed that Elgin produced a domestic automatic. I have on a few occasions considered getting one of these or one of the ones Buolva produced in the US.

 

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simomega

·Jun 12, 2022

Mine say hello!

View attachment 1430584 View attachment 1430585

Edited: Jun 14, 2022

 

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Pascal S

·Jun 12, 2022

The second one is lovely.

And they both share the same short second hand mine has as well. To be honest, when I received this watch I was wondering if that hand had a bit missing, but after browsing the web and seeing other examples I realized that it was actually a design choice. It's visually kind of weird compared with other watches.

 

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simomega

·Jun 13, 2022

I had both of these serviced by Mitka a couple of years ago…

here are links to (a lot of) pics in case anyone is interested in seeing the movement in detail:

https://workshop.mitka.co.uk/cgi-bin/library?action=show_photos&wat_id=315&tk_id=740601085

https://workshop.mitka.co.uk/cgi-bin/library?action=show_photos&wat_id=476&tk_id=543443630

 

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Pascal S

·Jun 13, 2022

Fascinating pictures. I haven't had mine serviced yet, and it's always interesting to see the details of a watch movement.

Thanks a lot for sharing.

 

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samthebutcher

·Jun 13, 2022

we're glossing over one of, if not the, most interesting thing about these movements- they are free sprung.

elgin was the only US manufacturer to commercially produce a free sprung balance. that's what that little symbol means on the dial. they produced several hand wound calibers and the two auto calibers you mentioned.

they were also the only US manufacturer to make bumper autos.

 

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Waltesefalcon

·Jun 13, 2022

I own a B.W.Raymond wristwatch with the free sprung caliber 780 powering it. I'll dig it out and take a photo of the balance later. For the time being here's an illustration of the Elgin Durabalance (their free sprung balance) that I found on the net.

Edited: Feb 5, 2024

 

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gatorcpa

·Jun 13, 2022·ΩF InvestiGator

You should find this interesting.

http://elginwatches.org/history/fm.html

Here’s my example:

Doesn’t have American Made” on the bottom.

But it is,
gatorcpa

 

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Pascal S

·Jun 14, 2022

Waltesefalcon

For the time being here's an illustration of the Elgin Durabalance (their free sprung balance) that I found on the net.

That balance wheel reminds me of Wyler's Incaflex shock-absorbing system.

 

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samthebutcher

·Jun 14, 2022

yes, in fact, if i remember correctly, wyler sued elgin due to the similarities.

 

C

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Cdnwatchmaker

·Jun 14, 2022

I worked on a couple of these over the years, the balance is very cool.

 

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samthebutcher

·Jun 14, 2022

one word of caution in collecting these- the rotor is mounted on a post sunk into a plate. over time, that connection can begin to weaken creating slop in the rotor movement which then allows the rotor to rub. when viewing examples for sale, look for evidence of rotor contact on the plate or caseback. it is a problematic repair, and usually the best solution is to try and find a parts donor.

 

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Pascal S

·Jun 14, 2022

samthebutcher

yes, in fact, if i remember correctly, wyler sued elgin due to the similarities.

I can easily see why. The Incaflex was Wyler’s USP at the heart of most their marketing which often featured watches being dropped from planes or high buildings (Eiffel Tower and Space Needle to name a couple).

 

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gatorcpa

·Jun 14, 2022·ΩF InvestiGator

Pascal S

I can easily see why. The Incaflex was Wyler’s USP at the heart of most their marketing which often featured watches being dropped from planes or high buildings (Eiffel Tower and Space Needle to name a couple).

I don’t think that lawsuit would go too far. Wyler did not use the weights on the spiral arms of the balance wheel like Elgin did. Totally different system for regulating the balance.

To me it would be like a buggy manufacturer suing Karl Benz because his automobile had wheels.
gatorcpa

 

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Pascal S

·Jun 14, 2022

gatorcpa

I don’t think that lawsuit would go too far. Wyler did not use the weights on the spiral arms of the balance wheel like Elgin did. Totally different system for regulating the balance.
gatorcpa

The fact remains that the spiral arms had been a patented shock-absorbing design since 1927, and whether it is improved upon by the presence of the regulating weights or not doesn't negate the fact that the basic design of the balance wheel seems awfully derivative.

To hijack your metaphor, it would be like a Rolls-Royce stealing Citroën's patented hydropneumatic suspension system and arguing as their defense that they've added their own leveling system on it (in reality, they played by the book and licensed Citroën technology for their new Silver Shadow in 1965).

 

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gatorcpa

·Jun 14, 2022·ΩF InvestiGator

Pascal S

The fact remains that the spiral arms had been a patented shock-absorbing design since 1927, and whether it is improved upon by the presence of the regulating weights or not doesn't negate the fact that the basic design of the balance wheel seems awfully derivative.

I don’t think so, but what do I know.

Anyway, there is a good discussion on this topic here: https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/elgin-durabalance-19j-first-vintage-wristwatch.899896/

And here is Elgin’s patent for the Durabalance balance wheel:

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/reference/patent/2880570/elgin-balance-with-adjust-moment-inertia

gatorcpa

 

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Bill Sohne

·Jun 14, 2022·Bill @ ΩF

Hi

Just remember reading about poising... and staff replacements should be done at the factory only ... the phrase " dynamic poising " was used.....

bill

 

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Pascal S

·Jun 15, 2022

gatorcpa

Anyway, there is a good discussion on this topic here: https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/elgin-durabalance-19j-first-vintage-wristwatch.899896/

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/elgin-durabalance-19j-first-vintage-wristwatch.899896/
Thanks for the link. It's amusing to see that 9 years previously some of the same questions were raised, with the same photos to illustrate them!

gatorcpa

And here is Elgin’s patent for the Durabalance balance wheel:
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/reference/patent/2880570/elgin-balance-with-adjust-moment-inertia

If I understood what was explained in the thread linked above, the Durabalance system is not the issue. It's the Durapower design it uses as its base that may have been a point of contention with the good people at Wyler.