Universal Geneve Automatic "23 Jewels" with a 17 jewel movement

Jonatan · Jun 5, 2019

Good evening everyone,

I bring forth a case of an automatic Universal Geneve with "23 Jewels" printed on the dial. I have seen a few of these in different cases and the "23 Jewels" text is usually darker than the Universal Geneve text. What is surprising is that two (one is mine) that I have seen have a 215-97 microrotor movement that only has 17 jewels which make no sense. If I would have only seen one I would have automatically thought that the movement was switched out and further research made me notice that there is, to my knowledge, never been an automatic Universal Geneve that contained 23 jewels. This leads me to the hypothesis that perhaps "23 Jewels" is the name of the jeweller that was selling Universal Geneve's in the late 50s early 60s.

Here are some pictures and links to posts to back up my hypothesis and research.

https://www.shucktheoyster.com/universal-geneve-vintage-watch-20370-2/
http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&zenoshop&0&2uswk&Universal_215_97

I would love some comments, other hypotheses or any information that could confirm or inform this discussion.

Thanks,

Jonatan

gatorcpa · Jun 5, 2019

I think I can solve this mystery.

1. Your watch is clearly intended to be a US model. You can see the "HON" import code on your movement. According to Dr. Ranfft, that code was assigned to the importer "A. Hirsch", who worked with Universal, Tissot and several other brands over the years.

2. While the movement is clearly engraved "17 Jewels" and "Unadjusted", both of which were required to pass into the US without additional Customs duties on jewels and adjustments, there is an additional engraving underneath the micro-rotor. It says "6 Additional Jewels Swiss". Both this engraving and the import code look to be hand-done with a stencil. You can see it clearly in this picture from one of your links:

Of course, 17 + 6 = 23, so the dial is correct. Not sure whether this was a back-door attempt to avoid the duties on jewels in excess of 17 or for some other reason. In any case, there is your mystery.

GLWS,
gatorcpa

BlackTalon · Jun 5, 2019

That is definitely a nice, sneaky way of doing things. Thanks for the lesson, gatorpa!

I cannot comment on the jewel count of the second watch, but is it a redial? The crosshair line breaks for "Automatic", but is drawn through "23 Jewels" (which also seems pretty sloppily written). And the crosshair line at the "9" marker appears to be drawn up onto the top of the marker.

I know UG dials vary a lot, and I have very limited experience judging them. So I am looking at this dial with the 'rules' I have learned for Omegas, which may not be applicable. I am hoping to learn more.

gatorcpa · Jun 5, 2019

BlackTalon
The crosshair line breaks for "Automatic", but is drawn through "23 Jewels" (which also seems pretty sloppily written).

The "23 Jewels" looks like an overprint, which might have been done after the watch was designated for US import. I suspect that there are similar dials without the overprint on non-US versions. The movements on these were likely to have been engraved "28 jewels" as standard for most versions of the cal. 215 movement.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa

BlackTalon · Jun 5, 2019

Yes, thank you. I was just looking through Instagram and I see this watch in a For Sale posting.

Jonatan · Jun 5, 2019

gatorcpa
I think I can solve this mystery.

1. Your watch is clearly intended to be a US model. You can see the "HON" import code on your movement. According to Dr. Ranfft, that code was assigned to the importer "A. Hirsch", who worked with Universal, Tissot and several other brands over the years.

2. While the movement is clearly engraved "17 Jewels" and "Unadjusted", both of which were required to pass into the US without additional Customs duties on jewels and adjustments, there is an additional engraving underneath the micro-rotor. It says "6 Additional Jewels Swiss". Both this engraving and the import code look to be hand-done with a stencil. You can see it clearly in this picture from one of your links:

Of course, 17 + 6 = 23, so the dial is correct. Not sure whether this was a back-door attempt to avoid the duties on jewels in excess of 17 or for some other reason. In any case, there is your mystery.

GLWS,
gatorcpa

This is great thanks Gatorcpa.

I found another dial on e-bay with similar markings.

Jonatan · Jun 5, 2019

BlackTalon
That is definitely a nice, sneaky way of doing things. Thanks for the lesson, gatorpa!

I cannot comment on the jewel count of the second watch, but is it a redial? The crosshair line breaks for "Automatic", but is drawn through "23 Jewels" (which also seems pretty sloppily written). And the crosshair line at the "9" marker appears to be drawn up onto the top of the marker.

I know UG dials vary a lot, and I have very limited experience judging them. So I am looking at this dial with the 'rules' I have learned for Omegas, which may not be applicable. I am hoping to learn more.

It's possible that the second watch is a redial. I couldn't get a nice picture and I simply remember looking at it on eBay and debating whether I should bid or not.

gatorcpa · Jun 6, 2019

Jonatan
This is great thanks Gatorcpa.

I found another dial on e-bay with similar markings.

Dial looks original to my eyes. Do the movements match?
gatorcpa

CafeRacer · Jun 6, 2019

Theres a quick summary of US-market Polerouters here, most of which has been covered already by Gatorcpa:
https://universalgenevepolerouter.com/identifying-us-market-polerouters/

Larry S · Jun 6, 2019

A perfect example of why tariffs are stupid. Also a great example of the deep knowledge here on OF!

Universal Geneve Automatic "23 Jewels" with a 17 jewel movement

Jonatan

gatorcpa

BlackTalon

gatorcpa

BlackTalon

Jonatan

Jonatan

gatorcpa

CafeRacer

Larry S

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