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Evitzee
·Yet the end of the story is the same, the once mighty American watch industry went completely out of business soon after. A sad story.
American Made - When Elgin made watches with a US automatic movement
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Pascal S
·That's precisely why I was attracted to this watch. It's a relic from a bygone era, and as such a way for us collectors to remember that the US once had a thriving watch industry. Rather than the sadness, I prefer to focus on the fact that, at our very modest level, we are keeping that memory alive.
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Ohmeguh
·This 761 is incoming and I am quite pleased in the condition:
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Canuck
·@Waltesefalcon mentions a B W Raymond wrist watch which is free-sprung, and has the Dura Balance feature. The Elgin B W Raymond name has always been associated with railroad standard watches. My information doesn’t include the Elgin B W Raymond wrist watch as having been approved by any railroad. But a friend of mine has a free sprung B W Raymond manual winder that was meant to be approved for railroad use. I don’t have a picture of it, but the watch is round, and the B W Raymond movement in it is a tonneau shape! The calibre 680 is round, and I believe it was also available without the Dura Balance feature. The regulation of a watch with the Dura Balance feature is odd. The wheel has a pair of weights on the spiral shaped spokes. The weights can be moved to bring the watch to time.
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JimInOz
··Melbourne Australia@Waltesefalcon mentions a B W Raymond wrist watch which is free-sprung, and has the Dura Balance feature. The Elgin B W Raymond name has always been associated with railroad standard watches. My information doesn’t include the Elgin B W Raymond wrist watch as having been approved by any railroad. But a friend of mine has a free sprung B W Raymond manual winder that was meant to be approved for railroad use. I don’t have a picture of it, but the watch is round, and the B W Raymond movement in it is a tonneau shape! The calibre 680 is round, and I believe it was also available without the Dura Balance feature. The regulation of a watch with the Dura Balance feature is odd. The wheel has a pair of weights on the spiral shaped spokes. The weights can be moved to bring the watch to time.
It's an interesting design. How would you correct for beat error?
Moving the collet on the staff?
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Waltesefalcon
·I apologize for the poor quality of the photos, but here is my B.W. Raymond wrist watch with the Elgin 780 movement. As @Canuck points out the watch is round while the movement is tonneau shaped. Unfortunately the watch is running in the photo, so you can only get an idea of the durabalance from the photo. The first and easiest thing to notice is the lack of an external regulator. You will also notice that the paint on the dial has started to peel from the soft iron dial in places. I really need to find a decent dial refinisher and have them repaint this one.
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Canuck
·I apologize for the poor quality of the photos, but here is my B.W. Raymond wrist watch with the Elgin 780 movement. As @Canuck points out the watch is round while the movement is tonneau shaped. Unfortunately the watch is running in the photo, so you can only get an idea of the durabalance from the photo. The first and easiest thing to notice is the lack of an external regulator. You will also notice that the paint on the dial has started to peel from the soft iron dial in places. I really need to find a decent dial refinisher and have them repaint this one.
@Waltesefalcon ’s Elgin B W Raymond is exactly like the one I described. That one is owned by my friend. Because these Elgins are fee-sprung, regulation is done by moving two concentric weights on the balance wheel along two spiral shaped arms on the balance wheel to speed up or slow down the watch.
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HamDoctor
·I wanted to contribute a picture of the 730 movement, which also features the DuraBalance ... but of course, mine is shown in a running state, as well, so no clear look at the balance:
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HamDoctor
·What I find super impressive about this family of movements is that they were a completely different approach to what other U.S. manufacturers were doing at the time. Especially Hamilton, but also the other companies like Bulova, Wittnauer, Waltham, etc. were using the "if you can't beat them, join 'em"-approach and basically switched to imported Swiss movements. The last Hamilton movement that was designed and built in the U.S. was the 770, introduced in 1955 (and in use till 1969) - a great movement, but the last of its kind ...
Elgin, however, tried to stem the tide with innovation, and was the sole U.S. company that built bumper and later full rotor automatics - and the Durabalance was a really interesting system. In that way, they remind me of Longines in the late 1960s to late 1970s - the writing was on the wall, but the company still invested in great tech and made the UltraChron movements (431 family), and later the technically very impressive cal. 990.
I also like that I was able to add a watch with a free-sprung balance to my collection, that's another box ticked... so here's my 1961 Lord Elgin Dunbar, which houses the movement shown in my previous post:
Elgin, however, tried to stem the tide with innovation, and was the sole U.S. company that built bumper and later full rotor automatics - and the Durabalance was a really interesting system. In that way, they remind me of Longines in the late 1960s to late 1970s - the writing was on the wall, but the company still invested in great tech and made the UltraChron movements (431 family), and later the technically very impressive cal. 990.
I also like that I was able to add a watch with a free-sprung balance to my collection, that's another box ticked... so here's my 1961 Lord Elgin Dunbar, which houses the movement shown in my previous post:
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Waltesefalcon
·Okay, here is a better movement shot of my 780. Here you can clearly see the weights on the spiral arms of the balance.
It is fortuitous for me that this thread has been resurrected at this moment. I have not bothered cleaning this watch and wearing it because of the fragile state of the dial. Earlier this evening just for fun I ran a search on ebay and found a supposedly NOS dial for $40. I quickly dug up my watch and removed the movement from the case and took the dial off. The ebay dial is a match. I'll probably clean the movement this weekend that way when the dial arrives the watch will be ready for some wrist time.
It is fortuitous for me that this thread has been resurrected at this moment. I have not bothered cleaning this watch and wearing it because of the fragile state of the dial. Earlier this evening just for fun I ran a search on ebay and found a supposedly NOS dial for $40. I quickly dug up my watch and removed the movement from the case and took the dial off. The ebay dial is a match. I'll probably clean the movement this weekend that way when the dial arrives the watch will be ready for some wrist time.
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Canuck
·The movement shown by @HamDoctor has shock protection on the balance jewels. The movement shown by @Waltesefalcon doesn’t have shock protection on the balance jewels. The very name Durabalance leads me to believe that Elgin might have relied on the spiral balance arms for a measure of shock protection. When one is moving the regulator one of these Durabalance equipped movements, the balance pivots must have borne at least a bit of strain during the adjustment, I would think.
Another factor I consider a bit strange on these Durabalance movements is that the hairspring is FLAT, with no Breguet overcoil! On a B W Raymond, railroad standard movement such as the calibre 780 (which Elgin suggests is railroad standard), I would expect there to be an overcoil. Curiouser and curiouser!
Another factor I consider a bit strange on these Durabalance movements is that the hairspring is FLAT, with no Breguet overcoil! On a B W Raymond, railroad standard movement such as the calibre 780 (which Elgin suggests is railroad standard), I would expect there to be an overcoil. Curiouser and curiouser!
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HamDoctor
·The movement shown by @HamDoctor has shock protection on the balance jewels. The movement shown by @Waltesefalcon doesn’t have shock protection on the balance jewels. The very name Durabalance leads me to believe that Elgin might have relied on the spiral balance arms for a measure of shock protection. When one is moving the regulator one of these Durabalance equipped movements, the balance pivots must have borne at least a bit of strain during the adjustment, I would think.
Another factor I consider a bit strange on these Durabalance movements is that the hairspring is FLAT, with no Breguet overcoil! On a B W Raymond, railroad standard movement such as the calibre 780 (which Elgin suggests is railroad standard), I would expect there to be an overcoil. Curiouser and curiouser!
Great observation about the shock protection (or lack thereof) - thanks for pointing it out! Yes, as I understand it, the balance itself was supposed to be shock-resistant due to the spiral arms ("shock protection is realized by the elastical balance spokes" was the info on the Ranfft database). It's interesting that one half of that movement family had extra shock protection (movements 730/730A, 732, 750, 752), and the other half didn't (movements 770, 772, 775, 777, 780).
I have been a bit unfair towards Hamilton in my previous post, which can be read as "Hamilton just used Swiss movements and failed to innovate after 1955" - thereby completely glossing over their role in the development of electric watches. Yes, in the end, the design was too error-prone and a bit of a dead end, but this is where Hamilton did innovate and create a lot of striking designs (of which the Ventura still persists today). Just wanted to add that.
@Waltesefalcon : What a stroke of luck to find just this dial! That was great hunting - I'm looking forward to seeing the watch in the new state.
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Waltesefalcon
·According to this article the B.W. Raymond wrist watch was approved by several individual lines and eventually the entire New York Central system. It also has some nice vintage ads for the watch.
https://www.elgin.watch/enwco/watch-lines/b-w-raymond-wristchronometer/
https://www.elgin.watch/enwco/watch-lines/b-w-raymond-wristchronometer/
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Waltesefalcon
·@Waltesefalcon : What a stroke of luck to find just this dial! That was great hunting - I'm looking forward to seeing the watch in the new state.
Indeed it was. I've been looking off and on for about five years now, and had pretty much given up last summer.
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707mm2
·the hairspring is FLAT, with no Breguet overcoil!
By 1960 almost every major manufacturers had abandoned the overcoil on their high end models, both for economic, technical and trend reasons : watches were getting flatter, and the development of higher frequencies was sufficient to qualify for chronometer standards with a flat spiral.
I suspect the development of free sprung watches with innovative adjustments on the balance wheel like the present Durabalance or PP's Gyromax was from the same reasoning : to get rid of parts, the regulator (and sometimes its micrometer adjustment), its delicate pins and the multiples screws on the balance, that were expensive and took some height.
If the aim is to have top performance, like for observatory chronometer competition, then sure your watch should have a regulator, an overcoil and a screwed balance. If you want to be just precise enough for a lower given standard like COSC, then you can look for cheaper ways to obtain acceptable results.
But yes this competition for economic savings lead to a gradual decline in the finish of high end watches from the 1950s to the 1980s.
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Waltesefalcon
·My NOS B.W. Raymond dial arriv ed, and I think I lucked out. It is pristine, and appears to have never been installed on a watch.
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Canuck
·Excellent!
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Ohmeguh
·My NOS B.W. Raymond dial arriv ed, and I think I lucked out. It is pristine, and appears to have never been installed on a watch.
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Waltesefalcon
·That is fantastic I love when this happens. This happened to me last month with an old Wittnauer. It feels like the universe presented this just for you. Glad you don't have to fuss with refinishing the original dial for now.
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