Advice on how to be a safer buyer

STANDY · Feb 7, 2020

gostang9
Same here. For all the silly debate about the arbitrary '200 post' rule prior to selling, the intent behind it is huge.

100% agree with the 200 post rule.
( I would be happy for it to be moved to 500 in today’s environment )

Funny how a recent trend being race to 200 then they think people don’t notice.

Had a question about a seller from a newbie a while back so I had a look at seller and from post 203 not a forum contribution besides bumps to all their watches for sale and the member was nearing 400 posts.

Capt Cave Man · Feb 7, 2020

gostang9
For all the silly debate about the arbitrary '200 post' rule prior to selling, the intent behind it is huge.

As a newer member to OF this alone increased my assurances in buying from OF members, that it is also an unwritten rule to post feedback on your experience which all can review.

Through OF I have successfully purchased a bracelet, not major monies involved but a starting point to building trust in the larger community... as both buyer or seller. TBH personally I don't think I would ever have a large or valuable enough collection to consider selling.

As for the OP, there is a lot of feedback here on options in buying and as some have stated wouldn't have an issue in providing answers to your queries or requests for proof of ownership, identity etc. I suspect rapport, relationship, diligence, trust, professionalism, honesty all come under the above and 'buying' the seller.. or buyer.

gostang9 · Feb 7, 2020

STANDY
100% agree with the 200 post rule.
( I would be happy for it to be moved to 500 in today’s environment )

I also 100% agree with the 200 post rule, lest anyone misread my comment to think I don't.

When I've looked into sellers, I also want to see:
- more than 200 likes in addition to reaching 200 posts (do people like their contributions)
- more than 2 years of activity on OF (are they 'sticking around')
- nature and quality of their posts (only short meaningless "nice watch!" posts or more in-depth than that)
- do they enjoy watches for the watches themselves, or is this merely a side-hustle

Walrus · Feb 7, 2020

pseikotick
I would add good dental hygiene to the list. A seller who doesn't floss regularly can't be trusted. So I always insist on face time and check their teeth like I would when purchasing a horse. 😁

A much overlooked factor in watch purchases

mjb · Feb 7, 2020

Funny, @pseikotick.

I've bought and sold watches via online, and in almost every case there were phone conversations in addition to emails and Google searches.

I never hesitate to ask for ID and to supply it when asked. We're talking thousands of dollars here, and it's always smart to take every reasonable precaution.

watch3s · Feb 7, 2020

Bill Sohne
hmm... just off topic... maybe seller should always say... location.. in sales post.. like GTA ( Greater Toronto Area ) ... NYC etc....
might just start local physical communities... as I am in the NYC area , I used to have a small GTG every 6 or 7 weeks ... with local watch people ... sometimes meet goes for 5 hours ... trading and sales etc... its only 5 - 8 people ... I just have not done it since sept since I we in the middle of doing condo audits that were due....

I was thinking of starting up again... ...

best
bill

I look forward to this as a fellow nycer.

DiiQue · Feb 7, 2020

It has been said before, but research, research, research. While I have yet to make the 200 post mark, I wholeheartedly believe that that restriction helps the greater community in the long run.

You hear the term "buy the seller" a lot, and that is definitely something that should be at the top of your "how to be a safer buyer" list. However, I do caution to not just solely go by that. In this day and age where accounts get hacked, safe sellers going bad (read about the one guy who was highly regarded in watch circles only to have been caught in some sort of scam) and a host of other stuff, you need to do your homework.

Not to sound all scared of online shopping. I do a ton of online shopping and have bought on ebay and various sites ever since online shopping became a thing. I just want to caution to take all the precautions you need to take to get you to the point where you can say "yes, sending the money your way now". If that means multiple emails, phone calls or asking for more photo evidence, by all means do it.

Good luck!

Faz · Feb 7, 2020

Your gut. Solid seller credentials. Check. Double check. Verifiable references, and much much more when dealing with a wire transfer.

Ask for the seller's particulars and if you have good credentials of your own and aren't comfy with a wire transfer, insist on paypal plus fees.

Walrus · Feb 7, 2020

Faz
Your gut. Solid seller credentials. Check. Double check. Verifiable references, and much much more when dealing with a wire transfer.

Ask for the seller's particulars and if you have good credentials of your own and aren't comfy with a wire transfer, insist on paypal plus fees.

This isn’t meant to be critical but I wonder sometimes why sellers here insist in pay pal FF. I understand it gives them protection where the seller can’t get his money back but it gives the buyer no protection. I have bought watches here using FF as it was the only option, I can’t bitch as I would have the choice to not make the purchase but I think pay pal with buyer covering fees is a fair option. The things me and my wife sell are always pp goods and services.

mjb · Feb 8, 2020

The problem with PayPal as a "normal" transaction (with fees) is that... well, I don't know if it's still in effect, but many years ago I sold some gold coins via eBay and PP, and they (PP) would not release the funds to me until after the buyer acknowledged receipt. And in this case, he held me up for a partial refund on shipping fees. What did he care, he already had the stuff. And I couldn't even threaten him with a bad feedback rating, again it was one bad rating against thousands of dollars. I wasn't getting paid until I sent him some money. Yes, it's called blackmail and it soured me on PP ever since.

Dan S · Feb 8, 2020

Walrus
This isn’t meant to be critical but I wonder sometimes why sellers here insist in pay pal FF. I understand it gives them protection where the seller can’t get his money back but it gives the buyer no protection. I have bought watches here using FF as it was the only option, I can’t bitch as I would have the choice to not make the purchase but I think pay pal with buyer covering fees is a fair option. The things me and my wife sell are always pp goods and services.

It's a matter of who trusts whom. The buyer and seller both want protection, but regular PP protects the buyer and PP/FF (or bank wire) protects the seller.

I have done it both ways, and so far I haven't been burned. But there are various threads on forums about sellers being burned by PP charge-back scams. It's not just the fees.

Faz · Feb 8, 2020

The irony! As a seller, for high value items, I'll accept regular PayPal only if the buyer has verifiable references and credentials in order to avoid frivolous chargebacks (it happened to me on lower value items and it was a royal PITA). As a buyer, I'll insist on paypal if the seller has less verifiable references to protect myself.

As @Dan S says, it's all a matter of what level trust you have in a buyer or seller.

OMEGuy · Feb 8, 2020

The riskiest deals were my best. But I wouldn't repeat them.

Walrus · Feb 8, 2020

Dan S
It's a matter of who trusts whom. The buyer and seller both want protection, but regular PP protects the buyer and PP/FF (or bank wire) protects the seller.

I have done it both ways, and so far I haven't been burned. But there are various threads on forums about sellers being burned by PP charge-back scams. It's not just the fees.

Well yes that was my point. Not so much the fees but the seller has complete protection while the buyer just hopes he gets the goods. Like I said a seller can choose whatever they want, no one has to buy it. But they expect full immunity for themselves and nothing for the buyer. It’s just a thing to point out, it is what it is

Dan S · Feb 8, 2020

Walrus
Well yes that was my point. Not so much the fees but the seller has complete protection while the buyer just hopes he gets the goods. Like I said a seller can choose whatever they want, no one has to buy it. But they expect full immunity for themselves and nothing for the buyer. It’s just a thing to point out, it is what it is

I get it, and like I said I've done it both ways. But I think it can be totally reasonable for a buyer to insist on FF. Consider the following hypothetical.

The seller, @seeking_el-pueblo_350 is a regular OF contributor, member for 10 years, thousands of posts/likes, serious collector, known by many, buys and sells regularly, dozens of favorable feedback threads. He lists a watch for $2,500. Not chump change, but obviously not enough for a serious collector to scam someone.

OK, here comes a buyer, @watchdude92. New member, zero posts. "Hey man, nice watch. Would you take $2,000 by PayPal?"

Why would the seller accept that payment by PP in a case like this? He knows his reputation is strong and impeccable and that dozens of other collectors would happily send him cash. Why take any risk at all to sell to some stranger?

As @Faz points out, to me it just depends which person has better credentials.

ChrisN · Feb 8, 2020

Walrus
This isn’t meant to be critical but I wonder sometimes why sellers here insist in pay pal FF. I understand it gives them protection where the seller can’t get his money back but it gives the buyer no protection.

I think you're saying that the buyer can't get his money back after receiving the watch - I am not sure this is true. Some time ago somebody said this and another member went in to PayPal conditions and it is still possible to claw back the money as a buyer if you used F&F, especially if you paid by credit card.

I just insist on bank transfer if I sell something and am happy to do the same when I buy, as long as I'm happy with the seller. As @Dan S says, why would I risk it.

Cheers, Chris

rkman11 · Feb 8, 2020

I think this is going to come up more often with PayPal’s recent change to not returning fees if an item is returned. I had no idea - was just informed. So you sell a watch for $3K, buyer decides to return, which you allow, and you are out almost $100.

I think bank wire is going to be more common.

On that, how comfortable would everyone feel using bank wire with a dealer that has a great reputation, but who they don’t know personally? And who isn’t a regular member of the forum they are active on? (Can you tell I’m being specific to a purchase I’m looking at?!?) How best to protect in that situation? Confirming the seller’s account hasn’t been hacked, etc?

Walrus · Feb 8, 2020

rkman11
I think this is going to come up more often with PayPal’s recent change to not returning fees if an item is returned. I had no idea - was just informed. So you sell a watch for $3K, buyer decides to return, which you allow, and you are out almost $100.

I think bank wire is going to be more common.

On that, how comfortable would everyone feel using bank wire with a dealer that has a great reputation, but who they don’t know personally? And who isn’t a regular member of the forum they are active on? (Can you tell I’m being specific to a purchase I’m looking at?!?) How best to protect in that situation? Confirming the seller’s account hasn’t been hacked, etc?

I guess when you get right down to it it’s not much different than FF but mentally it scares me a little more. I haven’t even been here that long but there are a couple people I would probably do it with. If I didn’t have some kind of previous interaction with someone it would be difficult. Cost is a factor to. It’s not fun but easier to write off a 500 dollar watch than a multi thousand dollar watch. At a certain point I can justify spending a little more at an established place for the safety, guarantee it was serviced and a couple year guarantee on the watch. I do see good deals on the wire side of things so I can see that as well.

Slowpoker · Feb 8, 2020

I've only ever sold 1 item on here, a 007 Spectre NATO and I met the Canadian buyer F2F in a Starbucks so I haven't got much experience in OF selling or buying.

However I've learned never to bank transfer or do PP F&F. There's no protection and you're essentially handing your cash over hoping the seller delivers what was promised.

Truth be told even if you send it via PP w/fees there's a slim chance the seller could win a potential case. But often times PP backs the buyer so it should be fine.

You can always try to be a safer buyer but you'll never be able to eliminate the risk of losing your money/items. Even F2F at a bank can be risky as I've read a couple posts on TRF where sellers arrange F2F at a bank and the buyers just dash out of the doors with the watches.

Anyway I digress but personally for this transaction I would either use PP goods & services or maybe even F2F if you're up to it.

Walrus · Feb 8, 2020

Slowpoker
I've only ever sold 1 item on here, a 007 Spectre NATO and I met the Canadian buyer F2F in a Starbucks so I haven't got much experience in OF selling or buying.

However I've learned never to bank transfer or do PP F&F. There's no protection and you're essentially handing your cash over hoping the seller delivers what was promised.

Truth be told even if you send it via PP w/fees there's a slim chance the seller could win a potential case.

You can always try to be a safer buyer but you'll never be able to eliminate the risk of losing your money/items. Even F2F at a bank can be risky as I've read a couple posts on TRF where sellers arrange F2F at a bank and the buyers just dash out of the doors with the watches.

Same here I’m just a local seller always meet face to face in public places. It does pose a separate issue I know people worry about the hold up factor but my wife has a side thing of flipping certain items so I’ve probably done it 100 times never had an issue. Even had someone over my house, didn’t like the idea but my wife managed to flip a new washer and dryer, I couldn’t deliver them.

Advice on how to be a safer buyer

STANDY

Capt Cave Man

gostang9

Walrus

mjb

watch3s

DiiQue

Faz

Walrus

mjb

Dan S

Faz

OMEGuy

Walrus

Dan S

ChrisN

rkman11

Walrus

Slowpoker

Walrus

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