A386 at Phillips GWA10 Lot 134

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chronoboy64

·Oct 16, 2019

I went through the online catalogue for the upcoming Geneva Watch Auction X and I stumbled over Lot 134, a beautiful A386 Mk3.

Phillips estimate for this Beauty is CHF 5.000 - 8.000, what is more than confusing to me. So I contacted Alex Ghotbi and asked him what is wrong with this watch. Alex confirmed that it is all original, great condition and comes from the first owner.

Phillips sold a A386 in their „Winning Icons“ Auction in NYC and it fetched USD 37,5 k including fees. So they should be aware of what these watches are worth.

IMO this estimate is stupid and counterproductive for them. Zenith collectors with great early El Primero stuff will directly go to the other first tier auction houses in the future because they think that Phillips is not knowledgeable enough.

I am quite sure that this watch will reach a good price when every thing is ok with it.

BTW they estimate a Heuer 1163 V Viceroy at CHF 5.000 - 10.000 in the same upcoming auction. So more worth than the A386 in their eyes. What a joke

Any thoughts ?

 

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Dan S

·Oct 16, 2019

Maybe they think the case was refinished, but even so it’s gorgeous and worth many multiples of the estimate. And they must be aware of that. These estimates often seem all over the place. Possibly they think it’s a strategy to attract bidders to participate.

 

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shishy

·Oct 16, 2019

Dan S

Maybe they think the case was refinished, but even so it’s gorgeous and worth many multiples of the estimate. And they must be aware of that. These estimates often seem all over the place. Possibly they think it’s a strategy to attract bidders to participate.

+1, sometimes setting a lower estimate might encourage more bidders = higher likelihood of it going "crazy"? I'm sure they have their own modeling to determine the best strategy...

 

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moyrules

·Oct 16, 2019

Estimate of this watch seems to be made by strategic reason.

 

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Maganator

·Oct 16, 2019

Lovely looking watch.

As an aside - can you buy the hour, minute and second service hands for the A386 & mod a standard modern el primero with them?

 

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chronoboy64

·Oct 16, 2019

Dan S

Maybe they think the case was refinished, but even so it’s gorgeous and worth many multiples of the estimate. And they must be aware of that. These estimates often seem all over the place. Possibly they think it’s a strategy to attract bidders to participate.

Thanks Dan and that is what I was told by Phillips. But I am afraid that they only create more interest on the low price end and bidders think they probably could make a steal. When then biddiing is up let´s say to the double of their high estimate I am afraid that some people will get out because they fear to bid to high and think "there must be something wrong with that watch".

And as the buyer it is IMHO also not a good feeling when you present your new watch to your friends and they will say "you must be crazy to pay more than the dounle of the high estimate for the watch". And you allways have to explain that and why the watch is worth it instead of being proud about your great timepiece.

I think they would have done much better with an estimate of CHF 12.000 - 18.000. 🤨

 

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jhross98

·Oct 16, 2019

I have found a low estimate is far more likely to attract a lot of bidders and drum up interest.. Watches tend to go at the "right" price..

I first learned this in wine auctions but never wanted to try it with larger dollar items.... I went with Phillips estimate on a railmaster last year with quite a low estimate and I believe it sold for the second highest price ever achieved by a 2914-1

If the watch is strong.. It will sell for strong money

 

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ConElPueblo

·Oct 17, 2019

chronoboy64

I think they would have done much better with an estimate of CHF 12.000 - 18.000. 🤨

A good auction house will know how to play the price game. Sometimes it will be by giving high estimates drawing in the crowd looking to make headline buys, on other occasions it will be by luring in a larger number of bidders by setting a low estimate.

You almost always see low estimates with non-mainstream watches like this one (to my mind, pretty much everything else than stable Rolex models are non-mainstream...) where the auction house is only just as or even less capable to assess the true condition than the experts and enthusiasts who are in the audience. They will know what to look for and what the value should be.

 

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trash_gordon

·Oct 17, 2019

Yes they set a low estimate to attract more bidders. With a low estimate they think that some bidders are estimating a below the radar bargain.

 

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simonsays

·Oct 17, 2019

While it is a lowish estimate, $37k seems a ridiculous sum. I think $10-20k is a fair price for these in today’s market?

 

D

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DHKNOLA

·Oct 17, 2019

All good points here, I am in the camp that this watch was deliberately given a low estimate because they want action on it and I personally think it is smart for auction houses to give low estimates the market will ultimately determine the price and this way you entice more potential buyers.

Estimate aside, my hammer guess is 18k.

 

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Frederic_gva

·Oct 25, 2019

Phillips always mentions low estimates for almost all watches they sell.... I am sure hammer price will be very close to 20K.... that A386 is beautiful with clean and fresh patina, the way we like them !!

Case may be polished, but all parts seem original.... If I had no A386 I would bid on this one...

 

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chronoboy64

·Oct 25, 2019

wrong rep

Frederic_gva

Phillips always mentions low estimates for almost all watches they sell.... I am sure hammer price will be very close to 20K.... that A386 is beautiful with clean and fresh patina, the way we like them !!

Case may be polished, but all parts seem original.... If I had no A386 I would bid on this one...

Thanks and I fully agree with your estimate.
HAGWE

 

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TexOmega

·Oct 25, 2019

24k plus fees if inside beauty parallels outside beauty.

 

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chronoboy64

·Oct 25, 2019

TexOmega

24k plus fees if inside beauty parallels outside beauty.

Thanks and very welcome estimate. I think about a winners price for the best estimate next to hammer price estimate, which would be fun and gives this thread a boost TBC

 

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billving

·Oct 26, 2019

Great piece, definitely artificially low

 

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m neuman

·Nov 3, 2019

Sometimes the auction house when given a watch from an estate where the seller is not clued to values will use the ability to put a low 'come on' price to induce buyers in the ring to bid, 'more fuel more fire'

 

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subregister

·Nov 3, 2019

The water damage to the dial could be responsible for some of the lowered estimate, along with perhaps the hands (at least the difference in lume condition between the dial versus the main hands/chrono hand, and the brightness - one would want to see this in person).
Either way, isn't in line where we see the latest sales (even at 10k Euro, plus another 25% BP):
http://alphahands.com/faq/zenith-a386-price-trends/

 

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Frederic_gva

·Nov 4, 2019

Not sure it was done by water.... water damage generally ruins the watch.... That one remains outstanding
I'll see the watch in person in 3 days.... so i'll keep you guys updated with detailed photos

 

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Janne2000

·Nov 4, 2019

I was also suprised to see the low estimate. This is a watch that I am really looking forward to see how it will sell. Myself having a mint mk2😀
But is something wrong with it was my first thought?