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kreyke
·This is a really long story, get a cup of hot chocolate or some popcorn 🍿 so that you can enjoy whilst reading my plight unfold.
It was nearly a month ago when I saw an advertisement on Chrono24 for a 22296 compax, sold by ICONEEK watches. It was a round pusher compax offered at a reasonable price (~3300usd) and I have been wanting to own a round pusher compax for a long time but my wallet was never deep enough to afford any. I have recently managed to sell a couple of watches and had enough budget for the watch this dealer was offering. Though the dial was not in the minty-est condition, it's yellowed patina was even enough for me to make a move on it.
Fearing that I would miss out on it, I contacted the number on the sales ad via whatsapp. I enquired more about the condition of the watch (service history) and if it could be shipped from an EU friendly location (dealer is from switzerland). She quickly responded quickly and I quote "The watch works perfectly and doesn't need a service for the moment". So I naturally responded by asking if there was any warranty or timekeeping issues and she said "No "warranty" as it's an old lady but we're always there in case of problems. Yes good time keeping"
She only accepted bank transfer and without warranty or service, I was a little worried. I asked if they had any references and I was informed that they are very well known in Geneva, she was a boutique director for many years (Zenith, Omega...) and her husband was a Director Watch Expert at Christies and Antiquorum. I checked out their website and it looks impressive. I felt reassured and I decided to do the bank transfer.
Fast forward a few days, shipping arrived quickly (best part of the experience) and I quickly unwrapped the watch. As a precaution, I always video myself unwrapping and testing the watch in a continuous video in case there are any problems or dispute. The watch looked beautiful and I was pleased for all 2 mins until I tested the chronograph. I could start and stop the chronograph but I couldn't reset it and I was thanking my lucky stars that I videoed the unwrapping process. Pushing the lower pusher did not move it much and it was already flushed against the case.
I was wondering if the watch was damaged during the shipping process and I went to check the watch in the photos they sent me. The hand in the minute subdial was at the same position as I received it and it seems that the chronograph function was already faulty before they posted it to me. At this point, I had so many questions in my mind. I am wondering how did a faulty chronograph escape inspection? Do they check the function of the watches? Do they ensure the watch is kosher? Do they vet their watches thoroughly?
Nevertheless, I wasn't too worried as they seemed fairly established. I contacted her and this was the reply "Dear Sir, we are sorry for the trouble. However prior to send the watch we did check the working condition. May be something move inside during the shipping.., could you please full wind the watch, because the chronograph work needs a lot of energy and then operate again the functions ? You need to press quite strongly to do the reset".
Now, if I was a new watch collector, I would have believed everything you said but unfortunately for her, I am not. Do you really need power from the mainspring to restart the chronograph??? 📖 She told me to press the pusher even harder. Luckily, I have noticed that the pusher was already flushed to the case. If I didn't know better and heeded her "advice", I might have even damaged the pusher or the case.
Now, I had to inform her that from the initial photos that she sent, it was obvious that the watch has not been reset. I did not call her out on her claim that they checked the watch before sending the watch out. Or maybe the check did not include the chronograph function on this chronograph watch. I had to educate an ex-boutique director and/or watch director expert on how the chronograph and mainspring interacts.
She then called me on whatsapp, apologized for the situation and offered to repair or refund the watch. They claimed that they deal with so many watches that this one might have slipped under their radar. Surely that is not a valid excuse for someone who's profession is to sell watches? Or am I expecting too much from dealers? Maybe previous dealers have spoiled me with their standards (pm me if you want to know). Nevertheless, I did not kick up a fuss or call them out on it as they have offered an amicable solution and offered to cover return shipping. I decided to go with the repair as I am still interested in keeping the compax. Unfortunately for me/them, I was relocating to Tokyo and then Singapore permanently which will make shipping more expensive and taxable. She has kindly offered to bring the watch to Singapore but I will still be in Tokyo whilst she is there. Thinking that it would simplify things for both parties, I offered the option of dropping the watch off with my friend in Singapore.
Fast forward 2 weeks later, my friend collected the watch but as he is not a collector, I asked him to send me a video of the chronograph running to make sure that I check the function of the watch (noting from past experience). Unfortunately (do you see a trend here), the watch chronograph is not functioning perfectly as described. As linked in the video (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxaz8z6ljx31790/compax.MOV?dl=0), you will be able to see the problem. The hand in the minute subdial register advances pass the supposed minute mark and then jerks back to the correct position. Admittedly, this is not a huge problem and the watch is still arguably functional. However, the watch was described as "working perfectly" and this to me, was not working perfect. With their track record, it makes me wonder if any inspection was done and what else could be wrong under the hood.
I contacted them again confronting this issue and we went through the whole process of "did you ensure the watch is fully winded.... etc etc). And the best part, to add fuel to the fire, she added this remark. "Also, you can expect from a 1956 wrist watch to run as well as a modern production?" Of course I can expect for it to function perfectly if it has been checked by a ex-boutique director/Director watch expert who describes it as "working perfectly". Also, I have several other compaxes, including tri-compaxes which functions perfectly.
Nevertheless, I entertained her advice as the minute register does draw energy from the mainspring but it is unlikely that this issue is caused by a weak mainspring and as expected, the issue persisted. I told them that I would be willing to either
1) service it locally and be reimbursed
2) post the watch back for them to service
3) return the watch and to be reimbursed entirely, including my bank fees as the watch is not as described.
They replied 3 days later after my reminders (I have double texted them several times throughout like a desperate ex) and stated "Prior to deliver again to your friend in Singapore, I did test the watch during three days with and without chronograph working. The fact that there is a little jump at the 2 minute (it's every minute by the way) when chronograph is activated, does not mean that the watch is not working or need a full service at our expense. Please refer to our condition report below the watch on the website and to conditions of sale under "about us" section. Since the second delivery, you did not have the watch in proper hand, and we are not responsible when the watch is delivered to a third party at buyer request. As a goodwill, I can have again a look inside the movement if you or your relatives bring the watch to Geneva. Best regards"
From their website, http://www.iconeek.com/462.html
1) "All condition reports merely reflect the state and condition of the watch on the day the watch is inspected; there is no guarantee that the condition of the watch will remain the same until the time of collection by the buyer."
Was their condition report even accurate? How could a defect so jarring (later revealed to be a missing spring in the pusher after he repaired it) be missed in an inspection? Did they conduct an inspection of the watches before establishing their condition report? If I wasn't astute enough to show them that there is evidence suggesting the defect in the watch was present before posting, would they have repaired and reimbursed me?
2) " As watches are sold as-is, there is no guarantee of movement accuracy, due to the nature of vintage watches. ICONEEK makes no representation or warranty that any watch or clock is in working order and none of our website descriptions of any watches should be construed as so stating, except special mention. "
I guess that mentioning it "works perfectly" via whatsapp does not construe as special mention. Lesson learnt.
3) "We’re not responsible for any theft, loss, damages causes by mishandling or negligence when the watch is delivered to a third party upon the buyer’s request."
Also, I have troubled my friend out of goodwill, thinking that it was a convenient solution to both of us, saving them the cost of shipping and I get to address the taxation issue. In the end, they have used it against me, insinuating that the third party could have cost that damage. Another lesson learnt.
When I asked what they meant about the description of "working perfectly" and this is their reply, "The little jump can be adjusted easily by any competent watchmaker and does not mean that the watch requires a full service. Yes when we wrote working perfectly it means working perfectly for a 60 years old watch." I guess it is my fault for not reading the conditions of sale on their site and for misinterpreting the description of "working perfectly". Also, I guess chronograph functions are not considered part of the function of 60 year old chronograph watches.
Now, I have not been offered the option to return the watch. Even if I do get to return the watch, I suspect that I would not be reimbursed of both shipping costs and bank fees. I'm not sure if anyone has purchased from Switzerland before but their shipping prices are extortionate at best. Shipping both ways would tantamount to the cost of a service.
Admittedly, the problem I have with the watch is not a huge problem. It might even be a simple fix as I have consulted @Archer. Nevertheless, I fear that it might be the tip of the iceberg and that they did not even inspect/test the watch properly. Who knows what other problems there might be in the watch but it leaves a lot of room for speculation. Through this ordeal, I have learnt a lot about vintage watches and perhaps, I've been too anal as a watch collector.
Thanks to his goodwill, I'll be looking forward to the next time I visit Geneva.
TL;DR version
1) Dealers and buyers can have very different interpretation of description
2) No matter how reputable the dealer looks, make sure to always fully check all the function of your watches.
3) Do not try to deal with a third party.
Last but not least, as everyone knows, BUY THE SELLER.
It was nearly a month ago when I saw an advertisement on Chrono24 for a 22296 compax, sold by ICONEEK watches. It was a round pusher compax offered at a reasonable price (~3300usd) and I have been wanting to own a round pusher compax for a long time but my wallet was never deep enough to afford any. I have recently managed to sell a couple of watches and had enough budget for the watch this dealer was offering. Though the dial was not in the minty-est condition, it's yellowed patina was even enough for me to make a move on it.
Fearing that I would miss out on it, I contacted the number on the sales ad via whatsapp. I enquired more about the condition of the watch (service history) and if it could be shipped from an EU friendly location (dealer is from switzerland). She quickly responded quickly and I quote "The watch works perfectly and doesn't need a service for the moment". So I naturally responded by asking if there was any warranty or timekeeping issues and she said "No "warranty" as it's an old lady but we're always there in case of problems. Yes good time keeping"
She only accepted bank transfer and without warranty or service, I was a little worried. I asked if they had any references and I was informed that they are very well known in Geneva, she was a boutique director for many years (Zenith, Omega...) and her husband was a Director Watch Expert at Christies and Antiquorum. I checked out their website and it looks impressive. I felt reassured and I decided to do the bank transfer.
Fast forward a few days, shipping arrived quickly (best part of the experience) and I quickly unwrapped the watch. As a precaution, I always video myself unwrapping and testing the watch in a continuous video in case there are any problems or dispute. The watch looked beautiful and I was pleased for all 2 mins until I tested the chronograph. I could start and stop the chronograph but I couldn't reset it and I was thanking my lucky stars that I videoed the unwrapping process. Pushing the lower pusher did not move it much and it was already flushed against the case.
I was wondering if the watch was damaged during the shipping process and I went to check the watch in the photos they sent me. The hand in the minute subdial was at the same position as I received it and it seems that the chronograph function was already faulty before they posted it to me. At this point, I had so many questions in my mind. I am wondering how did a faulty chronograph escape inspection? Do they check the function of the watches? Do they ensure the watch is kosher? Do they vet their watches thoroughly?
Nevertheless, I wasn't too worried as they seemed fairly established. I contacted her and this was the reply "Dear Sir, we are sorry for the trouble. However prior to send the watch we did check the working condition. May be something move inside during the shipping.., could you please full wind the watch, because the chronograph work needs a lot of energy and then operate again the functions ? You need to press quite strongly to do the reset".
Now, if I was a new watch collector, I would have believed everything you said but unfortunately for her, I am not. Do you really need power from the mainspring to restart the chronograph??? 📖 She told me to press the pusher even harder. Luckily, I have noticed that the pusher was already flushed to the case. If I didn't know better and heeded her "advice", I might have even damaged the pusher or the case.
Now, I had to inform her that from the initial photos that she sent, it was obvious that the watch has not been reset. I did not call her out on her claim that they checked the watch before sending the watch out. Or maybe the check did not include the chronograph function on this chronograph watch. I had to educate an ex-boutique director and/or watch director expert on how the chronograph and mainspring interacts.
She then called me on whatsapp, apologized for the situation and offered to repair or refund the watch. They claimed that they deal with so many watches that this one might have slipped under their radar. Surely that is not a valid excuse for someone who's profession is to sell watches? Or am I expecting too much from dealers? Maybe previous dealers have spoiled me with their standards (pm me if you want to know). Nevertheless, I did not kick up a fuss or call them out on it as they have offered an amicable solution and offered to cover return shipping. I decided to go with the repair as I am still interested in keeping the compax. Unfortunately for me/them, I was relocating to Tokyo and then Singapore permanently which will make shipping more expensive and taxable. She has kindly offered to bring the watch to Singapore but I will still be in Tokyo whilst she is there. Thinking that it would simplify things for both parties, I offered the option of dropping the watch off with my friend in Singapore.
Fast forward 2 weeks later, my friend collected the watch but as he is not a collector, I asked him to send me a video of the chronograph running to make sure that I check the function of the watch (noting from past experience). Unfortunately (do you see a trend here), the watch chronograph is not functioning perfectly as described. As linked in the video (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hxaz8z6ljx31790/compax.MOV?dl=0), you will be able to see the problem. The hand in the minute subdial register advances pass the supposed minute mark and then jerks back to the correct position. Admittedly, this is not a huge problem and the watch is still arguably functional. However, the watch was described as "working perfectly" and this to me, was not working perfect. With their track record, it makes me wonder if any inspection was done and what else could be wrong under the hood.
I contacted them again confronting this issue and we went through the whole process of "did you ensure the watch is fully winded.... etc etc). And the best part, to add fuel to the fire, she added this remark. "Also, you can expect from a 1956 wrist watch to run as well as a modern production?" Of course I can expect for it to function perfectly if it has been checked by a ex-boutique director/Director watch expert who describes it as "working perfectly". Also, I have several other compaxes, including tri-compaxes which functions perfectly.
Nevertheless, I entertained her advice as the minute register does draw energy from the mainspring but it is unlikely that this issue is caused by a weak mainspring and as expected, the issue persisted. I told them that I would be willing to either
1) service it locally and be reimbursed
2) post the watch back for them to service
3) return the watch and to be reimbursed entirely, including my bank fees as the watch is not as described.
They replied 3 days later after my reminders (I have double texted them several times throughout like a desperate ex) and stated "Prior to deliver again to your friend in Singapore, I did test the watch during three days with and without chronograph working. The fact that there is a little jump at the 2 minute (it's every minute by the way) when chronograph is activated, does not mean that the watch is not working or need a full service at our expense. Please refer to our condition report below the watch on the website and to conditions of sale under "about us" section. Since the second delivery, you did not have the watch in proper hand, and we are not responsible when the watch is delivered to a third party at buyer request. As a goodwill, I can have again a look inside the movement if you or your relatives bring the watch to Geneva. Best regards"
From their website, http://www.iconeek.com/462.html
1) "All condition reports merely reflect the state and condition of the watch on the day the watch is inspected; there is no guarantee that the condition of the watch will remain the same until the time of collection by the buyer."
Was their condition report even accurate? How could a defect so jarring (later revealed to be a missing spring in the pusher after he repaired it) be missed in an inspection? Did they conduct an inspection of the watches before establishing their condition report? If I wasn't astute enough to show them that there is evidence suggesting the defect in the watch was present before posting, would they have repaired and reimbursed me?
2) " As watches are sold as-is, there is no guarantee of movement accuracy, due to the nature of vintage watches. ICONEEK makes no representation or warranty that any watch or clock is in working order and none of our website descriptions of any watches should be construed as so stating, except special mention. "
I guess that mentioning it "works perfectly" via whatsapp does not construe as special mention. Lesson learnt.
3) "We’re not responsible for any theft, loss, damages causes by mishandling or negligence when the watch is delivered to a third party upon the buyer’s request."
Also, I have troubled my friend out of goodwill, thinking that it was a convenient solution to both of us, saving them the cost of shipping and I get to address the taxation issue. In the end, they have used it against me, insinuating that the third party could have cost that damage. Another lesson learnt.
When I asked what they meant about the description of "working perfectly" and this is their reply, "The little jump can be adjusted easily by any competent watchmaker and does not mean that the watch requires a full service. Yes when we wrote working perfectly it means working perfectly for a 60 years old watch." I guess it is my fault for not reading the conditions of sale on their site and for misinterpreting the description of "working perfectly". Also, I guess chronograph functions are not considered part of the function of 60 year old chronograph watches.
Now, I have not been offered the option to return the watch. Even if I do get to return the watch, I suspect that I would not be reimbursed of both shipping costs and bank fees. I'm not sure if anyone has purchased from Switzerland before but their shipping prices are extortionate at best. Shipping both ways would tantamount to the cost of a service.
Admittedly, the problem I have with the watch is not a huge problem. It might even be a simple fix as I have consulted @Archer. Nevertheless, I fear that it might be the tip of the iceberg and that they did not even inspect/test the watch properly. Who knows what other problems there might be in the watch but it leaves a lot of room for speculation. Through this ordeal, I have learnt a lot about vintage watches and perhaps, I've been too anal as a watch collector.
Thanks to his goodwill, I'll be looking forward to the next time I visit Geneva.TL;DR version
1) Dealers and buyers can have very different interpretation of description
2) No matter how reputable the dealer looks, make sure to always fully check all the function of your watches.
3) Do not try to deal with a third party.
Last but not least, as everyone knows, BUY THE SELLER.
Edited:
