A question for watchmakers about replacing hands

[DirtyDozen12]

Recently, I have been engaged in a discussion with someone about the potential service of their vintage watch by the brand. The primary reason for sending the watch to the brand is that the watch needs a number of uncommon parts and the brand seemingly has many of them in stock. The watch has now been inspected by the brand in Switzerland and something unexpected has come up. I will share direct quotations below, but essentially the brand is stating that they will only replace the incorrect hands on the watch if they restore the dial. Now, this may be the brand's policy and I could accept that. However, the explanation provided for why they would only replace the hands on this condition is what puzzles me. Please see the quotations below.

The current hands are not original. We will replace the current hands with original ones, only if the refurbishment of the dial is accepted. The dial is original. The condition of the dial is poor, so fitting new hands is risky unless the dial is restored. It could cause further damage to the dial due to the pressure needed to fit new ones.

And another quotation:

I apologise if I haven’t been clear enough about the condition of the dial – it really needs to be restored as it is in a highly deteriorated and fragile condition. We would normally not consider carrying out any work to the movement without the dial restoration but have made a special exception due to the circumstances of your request. Ultimately if something happens to the dial when in our care we would be liable for it, so we would not be willing to put your watch in an even further risky situation.

So, my questions are:
1. Does fitting new hands present a greater risk of damage to the dial than refitting the old hands after a service?
2. Does fitting new hands require more pressure than refitting old hands?
3. If "yes" to (2), does this greater pressure present a greater risk of damage to the dial?
4. If "yes" to (3), what damage is expected and how likely is it to occur?

I understand that the brand would be liable for any damage to the dial that occurred while under their care. However, restoring the dial is out of the question, and incurring a bit of risk of dial damage might be worth it if it means acquiring new, correct hands for the watch.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

 

[JimInOz]

If being fitted correctly, the hands should never come into contact with the dial.

If the correct brand new "original" hands are being fitted, they may require slightly more pressure, but again, should not present any problem with contact with the dial.

Only my amateur watchmaker opinion.

 

[DirtyDozen12]

JimInOz

If being fitted correctly, the hands should never come into contact with the dial.

If the correct brand new "original" hands are being fitted, they may require slightly more pressure, but again, should not present any problem with contact with the dial.

Only my amateur watchmaker opinion.

Thank you very much for this response.

 

[cvalue13]

While being unable to help in answering, I do have two questions that I wonder are of any relevance:

(1)

am I right to assume you’re here talking about a simple 3-hand with central seconds?

because theoretically, I could wonder if the answers to your questions change depending on the arrangement or complexity of handset being at issue?

(2) am I right to assume you’re here talking about a somehow “painted” matte dial with no texture?

here again, theoretically, the answer to your questions I wonder might change depending on the materials or textures involved in the dial?

 

[DirtyDozen12]

cvalue13

While being unable to help in answering, I do have two questions that I wonder are of any relevance:
(1) am I right to assume you’re here talking about a simple 3-hand with central seconds?
because theoretically, I could wonder if the answers to your questions change depending on the arrangement or complexity of handset being at issue?
(2) am I right to assume you’re here talking about a somehow “painted” matte dial with no texture?
here again, theoretically, the answer to your questions I wonder might change depending on the materials or textures involved in the dial?

Thanks for your questions.
(1) The watch is a chronograph with two sub-dials.
(2) The dial is white/silver-toned with printed indices. The sunken sub-dials have a concentric circle texture. There is no luminous material on the dial.

 

[DirtyDozen12]

To take this a step further, my understanding of watch hand installation is that hands are pressed onto the hour wheel, cannon pinion, and fourth wheel pinion (time-only with subsidiary seconds). Surely this would mean that any pressure used to install the hands would be exerted on these parts of the movement rather than the dial. Maybe I am mistaken?

 

[Anthony Lane]

In theory damage could also happen during the refurbishment process and I would think there would be a higher degree of this happening during a refurb than just setting new hands. Perhaps you make this point and let them know you accept all liability and ask them to proceed as requested.

Anytime a watch is opened and parts removed there is a degree of damage that could occur.

 

[DirtyDozen12]

Anthony Lane

Perhaps you make this point and let them know you accept all liability and ask them to proceed as requested.

Anytime a watch is opened and parts removed there is a degree of damage that could occur.

Thanks for your input. I am thinking along the same lines.

 

[blufinz52]

Is it not possible to replace the highly deteriorated and fragile condition dial with a new dial?

 

[DirtyDozen12]

blufinz52

Is it not possible to replace the highly deteriorated and fragile condition dial with a new dial?

A satisfactory new dial would be very difficult to find.

 

[Archer]

What they are telling you makes absolutely no sense at all. The installation of hands has zero affect on the dial.

Bizarre...

 

[DirtyDozen12]

Archer

What they are telling you makes absolutely no sense at all. The installation of hands has zero affect on the dial.

Bizarre...

Thank you very much for this response. You and Jim have all but confirmed my suspicions.

 

[Archer]

DirtyDozen12

Thank you very much for this response. You and Jim have all but confirmed my suspicions.

Can I ask what the movement is in the watch? Is there a particular reason they sent it to Longines? This is the sort of thing that illustrates why the brands are really not the place for sending vintage watches, if your goal is to keep the watch as original as possible, or have any control over the process.

 

[DirtyDozen12]

Archer

Can I ask what the movement is in the watch? Is there a particular reason they sent it to Longines? This is the sort of thing that illustrates why the brands are really not the place for sending vintage watches, if your goal is to keep the watch as original as possible, or have any control over the process.

The movement is a caliber 13ZN. I would not have recommended sending the watch to Longines if it were not for the relatively long list of parts that are needed (e.g. crown, stem, four hands, movement parts, crystal) and Longines' supposed stock of these parts.

 

[watchyouwant]

Strange. Longines is normally helpful. Fitting hands to the movement: no dial contact. Removing hands from the movement: the upward pressure is compensated with the 2 feet of the removing tool are placed on the dial. But you can , in most cases , remove the hands with the right tool , a firm grip and steady hand without placing them on the dial. Do you have a picture of the dial condition ? Next: option 1) if this watch is important to you, are you prepared to pay around Euro 500 more than needed? If so, tell Longines to remove the dial carefully as is and send back to you. Every Dial repainter can manufacture a new dial and solder the feet to it. Then they can repaint whatever correct or not they can. You end up with 2 dials and your options are open. That new dial might cost you Euro 500. Ask Longines about the cost of the dial. 2) if you can get your watch back without a problem, do that and have a skilled watchmaker remove the hands without damaging the dial further. Have the dial removed as well and place it in one of the round dial transport plastic cases . Then you can send the chrono back to Longines and place the incorrect hands and your original dial extra with it. But ask Longines first, if that is ok. Remind them, that fitting hands back onto the movement does not touch the dial, if done correctly.
3) the best way in my opinion would be to perform step 2) and send back to Longines without the dial . Add the hands only and have somebody , you trust , perform the dial fitting yourself. It all depends to find the right person at the factory agreeing to your wishes. Good luck !

 

[Dan S]

It sounds like they really want to replace the hands, and are more than willing to give your friend a BS story to justify it. Makes no sense at all. Would you consider showing a photo of the dial? I'm just trying to understand that aspect of their response.

 

[DirtyDozen12]

watchyouwant

Removing hands from the movement: the upward pressure is compensated with the 2 feet of the removing tool are placed on the dial. But you can , in most cases , remove the hands with the right tool , a firm grip and steady hand without placing them on the dial.

I was wondering about hand removal. I appreciate your input.

watchyouwant

If so, tell Longines to remove the dial carefully as is and send back to you.

watchyouwant

the best way in my opinion would be to perform step 2) and send back to Longines without the dial . Add the hands only and have somebody , you trust , perform the dial fitting yourself.

I was wondering about this course of action too, though I doubt that Longines will agree to service a watch that has no dial.

watchyouwant

Do you have a picture of the dial condition ?

Dan S

Would you consider showing a photo of the dial?

I will ask the owner if posting a photo of the dial is okay.

 

[watchyouwant]

I've sent vintage to the Omega factory without a dial. But that was 25 years ago .... Longines should be happy without the dial, if they consider it too fragile during their service.... No blame going their way....

 

[DirtyDozen12]

watchyouwant

Longines should be happy without the dial, if they consider it too fragile during their service.... No blame going their way....

This makes sense to me and might be worth a shot. Thanks again for your input.

 

[Archer]

If the watchmaker knows what they are doing, hands can be removed without any issues. There’s always a small chance something can happen, but unless this dial is extremely fragile, there won’t be any problems using the normal tools. The tools used never touch the dial directly, as there will (or should be) protection applied to the dial. This is very basic stuff.

There are specific tools used when a dial is very fragile or brittle, so for example on the Speedy Tuesday with the lume around the subdials, special hand removers are used. Same for Buzz’s butt on the 50th, and other watches where putting direct pressure on the dial could cause damage (either from the finish or with a fragile dial material, like mother of pearl, aventurine, etc.).