A question about "modern patina"

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Al i am with you all the way you can suggest not replacing the dial but in the end its the owners call thats why the word Dumbass is around. Hey ive called myself it many times when coming to watches..

Give them $10 off if they dont want the old dial 馃槜 Many will take the $10馃う
 
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all aged dial watches were new at one stage. keep it original; for value and looks. that quickly aged batch here might become valuable soon..... ( remember the value of the wretched "tropical dials" / often disguised moisture damage.... vintage rolex sportswatches lead the way in tropical dial values) kind regards. achim
 
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Al,
Interesting topic.
As you say, ultimately it's the owners call. In your shoes I guess I would make sure that they are aware that originality may be a desirable trait if they were to keep the watch for long enough re value and saleability. If they still want the dial replaced then I would suggest they keep the original in a safe place. In my mind this would fulfill any ethical obligations you might have re. Providing the best advice to your customers
 
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Interesting discussion to say the least.

The part of this discussion that is most difficult to answer, is whether or not "truly" original examples of modern watches (warts and all) will be more valuable that pieces that have been kept in like new condition over the years (through careful replacement of certain parts). Obviously that is true when it comes to vintage, but it may not come to pass with modern.

Years ago I used to buy and sell rare comic books. Part of the reason that comics from the 40's and 50's are worth so much more than later books is because when they were new, they were throw away periodicals, and not cared for much at all. Because of that, the number of "good" examples available to purchase years later were very small. Vintage watches are similar in that, someone buying a 2998 when new was simply buying a quality watch. They wore it as they went about their day, and didn't pay any attention to what it might be worth 50 years later. That's the reason there are relatively few good examples out there, and (part of) the reason they command the prices they do today. Today, when someone spends $6k (or more, or less) for a watch, they treat it as such, and years from now, there will likely be thousands of well preserved examples available. So by treating a watch (or anything) as a future rare collectable, you are ensuring that it will not become one.
 
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I'm actually more interested in when the current 20 year old watch is 50 years old. I guess I'm tying to see if people think patina will be valued as much (or maybe more) then as it is now. Of course no one will know for sure until the time actually comes.
In my experience, either bought by non-WIS types, or WIS types who like things to be shiny and new looking. This ?want it looking new" desire seems to be much more prevalent with those who buy more modern watches.

This same discussion about dials and hands could be had about case refinishing. People are far more likely to want a modern watch case/bracelet refinished than a vintage. My feeling is the current models that are "untouched" in the future will be pretty rare!
But it's not about Patina or no Patina, it's about how much a watch is naturally aging without either accidental damage or restoration. If a watch is damaged it should be restored, if it is aged then it should be respected, like a good leather jacket.

As to the value of the modern pieces I think it probably depends on how mass-produced and popular those pieces are.
Great discussion and apropos for me since I need to approve service on two similar era JLCs (purchased new and as yet unserviced; and arguably less mass produced than many). I was going to polish, then thought about my recent vintage experience and thought I should preserve. But I may be tempted to sell the Reverso while it still has some warranty left so I wonder which would be more attractive to most buyers?

They only have the minor normal scratching 15 years brings, so I'm leaning toward not polishing. But it won't be a question for another 30, as Al mentions, so polishing now probably won't make any difference. I doubt a polishing at 15 will be noticeable at 45, or will it?
 
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Al, I have never had any interest in that model SMP.... bur seeing those creamy plots, I'm suddenly re-evaluating...
 
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Nah. Can't get past the skeleton hands. Which incidentally, have not aged and so don't look right anymore.
 
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Lets face it (sorry about the pun), a watch displays the time in the present, the watch itself is from the past, and patina is one way a watch shows it has a history. It's all down to the individual and how much OCD they have. I would look at it from a watch by watch basis and decide from there. An unreadable dial may be considered useless by some, and glorified by others. Just my view.
 
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Great discussion and apropos for me since I need to approve service on two similar era JLCs (purchased new and as yet unserviced; and arguably less mass produced than many). I was going to polish, then thought about my recent vintage experience and thought I should preserve. But I may be tempted to sell the Reverso while it still has some warranty left so I wonder which would be more attractive to most buyers?

They only have the minor normal scratching 15 years brings, so I'm leaning toward not polishing. But it won't be a question for another 30, as Al mentions, so polishing now probably won't make any difference. I doubt a polishing at 15 will be noticeable at 45, or will it?

Probably not. There's only so man times you can polish a watch before affecting it too much. I would wait to the sale unless the scratches are really bothering you, or really superficial. The buyer can always choose if they want to polish.

That's what I did with the 5512 I bought last year. It was offered and sold unpolished precisely to give the buyer a chance to assess the value and wear of the watch; then it was up to me once bought to decide what polishing, if any, I wanted. The seller was extremely accommodating and, in the end, I just polished the plexiglass and the very superficial scratches in the bracelet and case, leaving the deeper scratches untouched so the case wouldn't be eaten up by the process.
 
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Right I can answer this conundrum definitively, I have a dynamic with a tritium dial and the markers are yellow turning into a nice orange. My daughter has coveted this watch so much I got her one for Christmas, to her ultimate dismay her dial has only just started turning yellow. Now I could have got the luminova dial for her but it was the colouring that drew her to an otherwise mundane watch.
I'm saying a tritium dial is alive and changing slowly before your eyes. Although we don't think of nineties watches as old, time has marched on for us old farts and they are now twenty years old. In years to come the watch in question and the early bond smp's will be more desirable for that classic look.
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Well thank you all for the input, and I do find it quite helpful. On vintage watches I do encourage people to keep them as they are as much as possible, but for modern if someone wants the aged dial replaced I have simply done what they asked and returned the dial to them. In the future I will make the argument about preserving the watch as is, or at the very least preserving the dial once it's removed from the watch and replaced with a new one.

The case refinishing question is more difficult, because once it's done it can't be undone. My approach to refinishing is to be very conservative, so I don't try to remove every mark, because that is when people doing the refinishing job get into trouble. That is when you risk changing the shape of the case, or losing sharp lines. My focus is to take off as little material as possible, and simply bring back the contrast between the brushed and polished surfaces, and this makes the watch look 95% of the way to new in most cases, but does not come with all the other problems heavy refinishing can cause.

In the end I think it will be more difficult to make the "keep the patina" argument on the more modern watches. Again I feel the majority of this demographic wants the watch to look as new as possible.

I really don't think most current production watches will have the patina question on the lume at least, because I don't think Luminova really turns colours like tritium does - I wish it did actually.

Again thanks for all your input.

Cheers, Al
 
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The case refinishing question is more difficult, because once it's done it can't be undone. My approach to refinishing is to be very conservative, so I don't try to remove every mark, because that is when people doing the refinishing job get into trouble. That is when you risk changing the shape of the case, or losing sharp lines. My focus is to take off as little material as possible, and simply bring back the contrast between the brushed and polished surfaces, and this makes the watch look 95% of the way to new in most cases, but does not come with all the other problems heavy refinishing can cause.
Very helpful. If you were doing the work I might choose differently. But as with one watchmaker who responded "there isn't any light polishing, either it's polished or not," I ran away. And a recent TZ SOTC post had two Reversos recently back from service (presumably with the manufacturer, he didn't say) that appear overly polished. So I'll let mine stay unpolished (knowing myself, I most likely won't sell it anyway).

And by the way, surprisingly maybe, Rolex expressed almost exactly your words about bringing some life back but not removing all of the history. I let them clean it up.
 
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I specifically bought this 14060 because it had tritium that had started to turn creamy, and I loved the contrast with the WG surrounds ...