3861 movement broken? Update: Read First Post

Archer · Jul 9, 2021

pdxleaf
If this is really a wide spread issue, then to me, I think they could benefit by taking a proactive approach.

There’s no firm evidence this is a widespread problem that I’ve seen. So I think sending letters to owners telling them “your watch might have a problem!” isn’t a particularly good idea from a PR standpoint, nor would it provide people with confidence.

As I’ve said, this is a bit of a no win situation for Omega, and they are actually being proactive in away. Information about this has been published through their service network on the Omega Extranet several times as more information about the problem has been gained, with the last update being a few days ago.

richard371 · Jul 9, 2021

Being a brand new watch I'm glad my AD gave me a full refund for now. Its a great watch and I will buy it again from them once they sort the bushing thing out. Their customer service at Tourbillion in SF is awesome. These things happen as they always make little mods to movements over the years. The 4130 has had many minor updates over the years I read. Not sure if a recall is necessary as these are not seatbelts or breaks for a car etc. What Omega should do is stop shipping them unless they know they have the upgraded parts but they might feel many wont notice it or it may be years before they do so no major loss.

pdxleaf · Jul 9, 2021

Archer
There’s no firm evidence this is a widespread problem that I’ve seen. So I think sending letters to owners telling them “your watch might have a problem!” isn’t a particularly good idea from a PR standpoint, nor would it provide people with confidence.

As I’ve said, this is a bit of a no win situation for Omega, and they are actually being proactive in away. Information about this has been published through their service network on the Omega Extranet several times as more information about the problem has been gained, with the last update being a few days ago.

Yep, the number of impacted watches seems a bit anecdotal.

I need to add to what others have said, thanks Al, for taking the time to explain the bushing issue and answering all our other watch related issues.

As for Omega, they are a stand up company and I still have complete trust in them. Now, where's my koolaid, I'm parched!

Time for a watch picture.

FL23833 · Jul 11, 2021

Do most of the failures happen within 30 mins of starting the chrono? I'm about to buy one and will test it by leaving it running at the AD if it's that quick.

Pun · Jul 11, 2021

If an extra bushing is needed and that's what Omega has accepted as a solution then, my question is, why not that be done on all 3861 movements out in wild? Why they do only on where problem arises? Commonsense says, unattended ones, working perfectly today, may develop snags some time later or anytime after warranty is over.

@Archer may explain better if I'm wrong in my commonsense. If I'm right then Omega should come up with a declaration that all those unattended 3861 working normally will be fixed complimentary in first service/visit to their service center whenever that happens...

Archer · Jul 12, 2021

Pun
If an extra bushing is needed and that's what Omega has accepted as a solution then, my question is, why not that be done on all 3861 movements out in wild? Why they do only on where problem arises? Commonsense says, unattended ones, working perfectly today, may develop snags some time later or anytime after warranty is over.

@Archer may explain better if I'm wrong in my commonsense. If I'm right then Omega should come up with a declaration that all those unattended 3861 working normally will be fixed complimentary in first service/visit to their service center whenever that happens...

It's not an "extra" bushing. It's replacing two bushings that are there with 2 different bushings.

Regarding your other suggestion, this watch has a 5 year warranty. If it makes it to the 5 years without this issue happening (if it doesn't then it will be repaired under warranty) and it fails say after 6 years then it will be essentially due for a full service anyway, which you would pay for. The bushings are already mandatory replacement parts, so they will be changed in each watch serviced from now on regardless if the watch shows this problem or not.

It's very puzzling to me with people here talking about declarations, recalls, and similar language for this specific Omega. Has Rolex "declared" that all the Tudor GMT's with malfunctioning dates and all the 3235 movements with wearing seconds wheels will be repaired under warranty no matter when they fail? No, because this industry doesn't work that way, no matter how much people think it should.

It seems people have to a degree lost their minds over this one, and I can't quite figure out why...

M'Bob · Jul 12, 2021

Archer
No, because this industry doesn't work that way, no matter how much people think it should.

I can only hazard a guess here that while the industry doesn’t do it, the perception by owners that they should may be rooted in the concept that they’re purchasing non-essential, mostly frivolous luxury items, and if they were to do recalls, it would probably go a long way to furthering customer good will.

zeiter · Jul 12, 2021

It seems very reasonable to me that the problematic model should be withheld from sale until the movements in them are upgraded.

Unlike Rolex/Tudor and to Omega’s credit, a hard fault has been identified and a specific remedy is in place.

z

Archer · Jul 12, 2021

M'Bob
I can only hazard a guess here that while the industry doesn’t do it, the perception by owners that they should may be rooted in the concept that they’re purchasing non-essential, mostly frivolous luxury items, and if they were to do recalls, it would probably go a long way to furthering customer good will.

Thanks, Captain Obvious. 😉

But did we get the same calls for declarations and recalls when the 2500's were crapping out left and right? No, and not for any other well known issue that has cropped up since. The 8500 hands desynchronization, or the faults with the DLC coated barrels, or the failures of the balance pivots when they changed to the antimagnetic shock parts, the various 3303 chronograph parts that could fail, and the list goes on and on.

As I've said, problems like these are very common from Omega and all brands out there.

The puzzling part (to me at least) is that the hue and cry here is way out of proportion to the faults seen. The 2500 thing was FAR worse than this was (months and months of reports of watches just stopping when fully wound out of the blue), and although people were certainly frustrated, no one was talking about recalls and declarations of fixing watches way into the future, and this is when the watches only had a 2 year warranty! So the chances of having to pay for a fix in that situation were far greater then they are here with the 5 years warranty.

Bry · Jul 12, 2021

F FL23833
Do most of the failures happen within 30 mins of starting the chrono? I'm about to buy one and will test it by leaving it running at the AD if it's that quick.

The ones I had worked fine in the OB (full wind, set time check chrono functions repeatedly). They locked up after I got home. There wasn't a particular time frame. The watches were fresh from factory and had at max wound down 24hrs from a full wind. They would lockup after engaging the chrono start/stop button ( could see stop through sapphire back and saw small second had stop) they would start again and not do it again for some time. Saw them stop and start again on their own so it looked like they lost 30 seconds in from me engaging on the watch. Didn't realize that was happening on the first one (thought it was me) but saw it restart itself on the second one once I figured out what I was looking for.
See my previous post on page 6 of this thread.

Granted these movements could have both been bad luck for me and other are not having problems. I sincerely hope that is true because they are very nice timepieces 😀

I'd discuss your concern with you AD before buying and discuss the stores refund policy. That way if you do have a problem you can take a step back and repurchase if you want once the movement gets ironed out.
Best of luck!!!!!

pdxleaf · Jul 12, 2021

Archer
...The puzzling part (to me at least) is that the hue and cry here is way out of proportion to the faults seen. ..

Perhaps because it's the Speedmaster.

Agreed, there is a bit ( alot) of lore associated with the watch. You make good arguments why this is being handled in perfect, normal fashion. I particularly appreciated learning that the bushings in question would be replaced as a matter of course during a service.

I can also appreciate why you, as a watchmaker have a broader perspective of this kind of issue and are able to see it for what it is. Having learned more from the facts you've shared, I can understand your rationale. You may be right. I can't think of a fact that would make this tecnical issue a big deal.

But it's the Speedmaster. It shouldn't be a surprise that people have unrealistic expectations when a big part of the watch's marketing is the severe testing it underwent to become the moon watch, as well as that it remains the only watch still qualified for NASA. It is disappointing to think that an astronaut would have a brand new 3861 on a launch and have the chronograph crap out. Likely to happen? Not likely. Disappointing? Easy for me to understand.

Bottom line is I still trust Omega and still plan to get a sapphire moonwatch in the next year. I don't like that this gives ammunition to the speedmaster haters. But if anyone says anything, thanks to you, I can tell them "it's just a bushing, they'll change it anyway on the first service!"

Archer · Jul 12, 2021

pdxleaf
Disappointing? Easy for me to understand.

Yes, absolutely easy to understand, to be clear I've never said this shouldn't be disappointing for people who have the problem. I just think people need to keep this in some proper perspective, that's all.

Go over to the Rolex section of any forum (even this one) and no one is losing their shit over the 3235 problems, and we aren't even sure they have a solution! That affects so many watch models there, you would think people would be getting the pitchforks out. Maybe what Rolex does (keep everyone completely in the dark) works better for stuff like this.

SN13 · Jul 12, 2021

pdxleaf
My thoughts are that if this is a wide spread issue,(which is anecdotal at this point), then it might be better for Omega to get in front of it and inform buyers in advance. Perhaps a simple letter that says please note this potential issue and send it back to us if you experience this, etc. A recall is probably too extreme. A letter would show they are on top of it. Finding a problem with a 6 to 7k new watch and then finding out that the company knew about it and there is a back log of people trying to get their watch fixed seems like it could impact people's trust in the brand.

Look at this from Omega's Perspective.

They are having this issue on SOME of the watches with the new material bushing. Not 100%.

We are more sensitive to the issue as we are active on forums that discuss such topics.

To the avg person, they don't know and don't care.

If they have a problem they come back to Omega and the Dealer says "Oh no, sorry you had trouble, we will send it to Omega for a full service at no cost to you and make sure the problem is fixed!"

Avg Joe says "Yeah this sucks, but thanks for taking care of me".

OOOOORRRR

Omega can say "YOUR WATCH MAY HAVE A PROBLEM WE KNOW ABOUT BUT WE'RE NOT SURE. AFTER YOU SPEND $7k, TRY IT OUT AND LOOK FOR THIS ISSUE!"

They may get inundated with watches that DONT have the problem just because they've sent out the "alert".

Oh my watch is losing 6 seconds a day! Is it that Bushing issue? Send it back!

Highlighting the issue will only ensure that people become hypersensitive to the issue.

SN13 · Jul 12, 2021

Archer
Yes, absolutely easy to understand, to be clear I've never said this shouldn't be disappointing for people who have the problem. I just think people need to keep this in some proper perspective, that's all.

Go over to the Rolex section of any forum (even this one) and no one is losing their shit over the 3235 problems, and we aren't even sure they have a solution! That affects so many watch models there, you would think people would be getting the pitchforks out. Maybe what Rolex does (keep everyone completely in the dark) works better for stuff like this.

People on "Other Forums" that deal with Rolex, insist on defending the 3235 "A few watches having a problem but get repaired, no biggy... then 6 months later they experience the same problem.... But still under warranty, just fix it again...."

Those users then go to the Omega section and bash the 3861 problems that Omega has a solution for.

Head in the sand Confirmation Bias.

MTROIS · Jul 12, 2021

Archer
Yes, absolutely easy to understand, to be clear I've never said this shouldn't be disappointing for people who have the problem. I just think people need to keep this in some proper perspective, that's all.

Go over to the Rolex section of any forum (even this one) and no one is losing their shit over the 3235 problems, and we aren't even sure they have a solution! That affects so many watch models there, you would think people would be getting the pitchforks out. Maybe what Rolex does (keep everyone completely in the dark) works better for stuff like this.

Al, I think it has to do with the fact that the Omega and Rolex crowds are overall different. I do believe it to be established that as a whole Omega attracts more scientists, engineers, techys, and other technology-inclined customers. In turn, this nerdy crowd (to which I am proud to belong) May pay more attention to the topic discussed in this thread.
So, overall, not too surprised that Rolex issues are less discussed on TRF.

SN13 · Jul 12, 2021

MTROIS
Al, I think it has to do with the fact that the Omega and Rolex crowds are overall different. I do believe it to be established that as a whole Omega attracts more scientists, engineers, techys, and other technology-inclined customers. In turn, this nerdy crowd (to which I am proud to belong) May pay more attention to the topic discussed in this thread.
So, overall, not too surprised that Rolex issues are less discussed on TRF.

Oh, they are discussed.... but it's washed out by the constant "Which do you think will be worth more in 10 years, this Mass Produced Daytona or this Mass Produced GMT?" Also, Which should I pay 250% MSRP for? Also, what's a better investment? Also, Which is more rare?

blah blah blahhhh

Archer · Jul 12, 2021

MTROIS
I do believe it to be established that as a whole Omega attracts more scientists, engineers, techys, and other technology-inclined customers.

I would love to see the data on this. I count myself as one of them, being an engineer and watchmaker, but I don't get the impression that this is established at all.

MTROIS · Jul 12, 2021

SN13
Oh, they are discussed.... but it's washed out by the constant "Which do you think will be worth more in 10 years, this Mass Produced Daytona or this Mass Produced GMT?" Also, Which should I pay 250% MSRP for? Also, what's a better investment? Also, Which is more rare?

blah blah blahhhh

I hear you... this is why I have left TRF a WHILE AGO!

MTROIS · Jul 12, 2021

Archer
I would love to see the data on this. I count myself as one of them, being an engineer and watchmaker, but I don't get the impression that this is established at all.

I must admit that I do not have hard data on this, just circumstantial evidence.

tooch · Jul 12, 2021

F FL23833
Do most of the failures happen within 30 mins of starting the chrono? I'm about to buy one and will test it by leaving it running at the AD if it's that quick.

My faulty one would fail within 2-4 seconds of starting the chrono, and would do it even after a full wind.

3861 movement broken? Update: Read First Post

Archer

richard371

pdxleaf

FL23833

Pun

Archer

M'Bob

zeiter

Archer

Bry

pdxleaf

Archer

SN13

SN13

MTROIS

SN13

Archer

MTROIS

MTROIS

tooch

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