321 v 861 and the much talked about cost savings

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@pdxleaf

so the column in a column wheel can break.



one of the requirements on watches that carry a Geneve seal like Patek is that the wheel is capped which is more expensive to make but is much stronger.


This makes sense. But was Omega seeking a Geneve seal, either because they simply wanted the recognition or because they were being required to have a seal? (I don't know anything about the Geneve seal and had to look it up.)

I actually had a watch with a busted column. It would work fine until it spun to the missing pillar. So I'm a believer.
 
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This makes sense. But was Omega seeking a Geneve seal, either because they simply wanted the recognition or because they were being required to have a seal? (I don't know anything about the Geneve seal and had to look it up.)

I actually had a watch with a busted column. It would work fine until it spun to the missing pillar. So I'm a believer.
Nope, they did not want the seal and all the BS that goes with it. I think the change to the cam based actuation was for reliability and cost cutting.

simple explanation which includes scope - https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-meaning-of-the-coat-of-arms-on-the-geneva-seal

detailed explanation - https://poincondegeneve.ch/en/craftsmanship
 
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Nope, they did not want the seal and all the BS that goes with it. I think the change to the cam based actuation was for reliability and cost cutting.

simple explanation which includes scope - https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/the-meaning-of-the-coat-of-arms-on-the-geneva-seal

detailed explanation - https://poincondegeneve.ch/en/craftsmanship

The cost savings from eliminating the column wheel (if there actually was any - not convinced there was) is minor.
 
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The cost savings from eliminating the column wheel (if there actually was any - not convinced there was) is minor.
From a capped wheel though? The capped wheel is more reliable since one of the things they wanted out of the 861 is that it is more reliable than the 321. Not a primary concern at all, I'm just wondering if it was part of the equation.
 
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From a capped wheel though? The capped wheel is more reliable since one of the things they wanted out of the 861 is that it is more reliable than the 321. Not a primary concern at all, I'm just wondering if it was part of the equation.

There is no capped wheel on a 321, so I'm not quite following why this is even in the discussion...
 
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This makes sense. But was Omega seeking a Geneve seal, either because they simply wanted the recognition or because they were being required to have a seal?

I thought Omega watches were made in Bienne so I can’t fathom how the Geneva seal is remotely pertinent to this discussion. Were they made in Geneva at the time of this change? (Excuse the newbie question).
Edited:
 
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Awesome deep dive, as usual 👍

Regarding 321-861 and the removal of the sliding gear, the evolution of Lemania calibers should help. The 1270/80 familly still have the sliding gear while the 1800 family don't


Of course there are other arrangements out there for minute counter - the central minute counters are a different animal, and the minute counters that constantly turn are also, but I'm referring to those that are tripped once per minute.
and... I now know about the Longines 5699. Meaning I now need money and patience... a lot of both 😁
 
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There is no capped wheel on a 321, so I'm not quite following why this is even in the discussion...
Sorry. If Omega wanted a more reliable movement which I thought was one of the three claimed reasons. Cost, reliability, and ease of construction.

then a weak spot would have been the column wheel. Hence 2 options cap it at additional cost or move to a cam system.
 
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Sorry. If Omega wanted a more reliable movement which I thought was one of the three claimed reasons. Cost, reliability, and ease of construction.

then a weak spot would have been the column wheel. Hence 2 options cap it at additional cost or move to a cam system.

Okay, I understand now. How do you feel the cap solves the reliability problems?
 
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I thought Omega watches were made in Bienne so I can’t fathom how the Geneva seal is remotely pertinent to this discussion. Were they made in Geneva at the time of this change? (Excuse the newbie question).

Yes, the Geneva seal is a tangent. It came up as part of brainstorming about possible reasons why Omega may have chosen to switch from the crown to the cam. The thought was that a crown wouldn't pass the criteria for a seal so switching from an open topped crown could have the additional benefit of allowing Omega to seek a seal, if they chose to at some point.

I asked about this as I wasn't aware of the seal, nor of Omega having ever sought to acquire the seal. Just trying to follow the thinking and curious.

It is a distraction, as you noted, if for no other reason than that a watch needs to be made in the Canton of Geneva, in addition to meeting certain quality standards. But as a question about the possible reasons that drove Omega to change from the crown, it seems an interesting hypothesis and thought.

Not sure if this makes sense but wanted to reply to your question without distracting the thread even more.
 
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Okay, I understand now. How do you feel the cap solves the reliability problems?
My understanding is that the cap provides 2 attachment points for the columns making it significantly harder for one of the columns to snap.
 
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So the change was made for reliability. Has it been shown to be more reliable in properly maintained movements? Will a recent 1861 movement be more reliable than a new 321 over the next 20, 30, 50 years? I've had lots of column wheel chronographs over the years and never found them to be much of a problem, I certainly never had a column fail/break or had any failure related to the column wheel design.
 
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My understanding is that the cap provides 2 attachment points for the columns making it significantly harder for one of the columns to snap.
I could be wrong, but I think that the cap is a separate piece and there is a regular column wheel underneath.
 
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I thought Omega watches were made in Bienne so I can’t fathom how the Geneva seal is remotely pertinent to this discussion. Were they made in Geneva at the time of this change? (Excuse the newbie question).
I have no idea what a Geneva seal is.
As I recall Leamania was in La Chaux de Fonds. Quite a pretty place. I took quite a few 3D photos there.

-j

edit: the 3d version has been online since 1996 May have the location wrong as some of the others are from Val de joux and L'Orent. These were also the names of my hard disks.
https://delectra.com/jporter/p004.html
 
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I could be wrong, but I think that the cap is a separate piece and there is a regular column wheel underneath.

Yes, the cap is a separate part.
 
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Yes, the cap is a separate part.
I did it know that. I thought they where made into one part.

I read a few bad articles that described the 321 and the Patek “version” of it.
 
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I did it know that. I thought they where made into one part.

I read a few bad articles that described the 321 and the Patek “version” of it.

Do you have any links?
 
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The column wheel cap on for example a Patek Philippe CH27-70 (Lemania 2310 based) is a separate part of the column wheel and does not affect its function at all.

I have always assumed that it is there for easthetic/historical reasons. I guess because chamfering and finishing the column wheel was no easy task, they just decided to cover it up.

It has been used on higher end chronographs since at least the 19th century (possibly earlier), and pre-dates the Geneva seal.

Lastly, on the newer PP chronographs (29-535) the cap is actually an eccentric which adjust the depth of penetration of the coupling clutch wheel. But this is really an exception when it comes to the function of the cap.
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Thank you @Archer ! very informative and great pictures, easy to understand it when presented this way.
 
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Great thread, Archer. Thanks for this contribution.