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Canuck
·This is a bi-metallic, temperature compensating balance wheel with steel arms. I donut think “corroding” the old staff out is the way to go. Unless there’s a method of doing it that I don’t know about.
30T2 Balance Repair or Replacement- Advice Please
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Deggsy1969
·This is turning into a major challenge when it is really a very simple repair!
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Deggsy1969
·It looks like you've already improved the hairspring to a reasonable shape before making adjustments when mounted. You can just replace the complete roller table with a new one, probably Omega calibre 100, part number #1324. These are available in UK. I haven't checked the part number as it's late evening here but I think this is correct.
It all depends on whether you feel you can remove the hairspring and table then corrode the staff out of the balance. As long as you have a staking set and can source a correct staff, then you may be able to repair this balance - even if you fail, it's a useful learning experience. There's a bit more to it than just staking in a new one as you need to check it is true (for example, with truing calipers) but I believe Al has a write up on here explaining the method. Generic staffs are available fairly cheaply for most calibers (not sure about the 30T2) but an Omega one will be a significant amount. Be careful that you get one that is not for an Incabloc.
Agreed though that the simple way forward is a replacement movement.
Good luck, Chris
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sheepdoll
·I see I am not the only one with balance issues.
Staffs are easy, hairsprings are 🤬. I just did some searches to see if there are any reasonable Val-hairsprings. At least this is an Omega and parts can be had reasonably. I recently got a balance on a plate for a 351. Which may be the next thing I play with once I get the current mess cleaned up.
The thing I have discovered recently and @Archer noted is the shock system. Not to mention the over coils. This sort of thing is not always detailed when getting 3rd party parts. I tried swapping some A Schild balances around. In the end I just ordered one.
At one time there were people who just did hairsprings. I would love to someone who could fix mine. Eventually I may learn the tricks, but that could take years. And I have a short attention span.
In theory a machine could be made using AI to fix a hairspring. I have some old chip making machinery. There are grippers for those fine wires that move on sliders. I suspect a good mechanical engineer could come up with something. Some of the first computer programs I wrote plotted spirals.
Staffs are easy, hairsprings are 🤬. I just did some searches to see if there are any reasonable Val-hairsprings. At least this is an Omega and parts can be had reasonably. I recently got a balance on a plate for a 351. Which may be the next thing I play with once I get the current mess cleaned up.
The thing I have discovered recently and @Archer noted is the shock system. Not to mention the over coils. This sort of thing is not always detailed when getting 3rd party parts. I tried swapping some A Schild balances around. In the end I just ordered one.
At one time there were people who just did hairsprings. I would love to someone who could fix mine. Eventually I may learn the tricks, but that could take years. And I have a short attention span.
In theory a machine could be made using AI to fix a hairspring. I have some old chip making machinery. There are grippers for those fine wires that move on sliders. I suspect a good mechanical engineer could come up with something. Some of the first computer programs I wrote plotted spirals.
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Deggsy1969
·A couple of people here have messaged to say it seems like I just bounced in without introducing myself. I do apologise that Ive made an error, in so far as I introduced myself in one discussion room, and then formed a thread in here inadvertently. Please see my introduction here: https://omegaforums.net/threads/thanks-for-adding-me-to-your-group.155537/
Kind regards. Darren
Kind regards. Darren
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Deggsy1969
·If you aren't worried about originality, then you can just get a donor movement of the same series and use that...
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerHello thanks for your help so far. Someone has stepped forward and offered a balance with good condition staff and roller table (impulse jewel intact). However there is no balance spring and the balance screws have been robbed. It was taken from a 30T2(SC). I am therefore planning to use the roller table and wonder if the centre seconds variant will be compatible to a 30T2 sub-seconds variant? Regards, Darren
It will depend on what central seconds version the balance is from - they are not all the same with respect to the balances...
280 uses a 260 balance.
281 uses a 262 balance.
283 uses a 265 balance.
284 uses a 265 balance.
285 uses a 268 balance - smooth balance.
286 uses a 269 balance - smooth balance.
When it comes to the roller table, there's not enough information to tell you if they all use the same one, or if they are different. If you remove the roller from the original and the donor balance, you can measure the staffs to see if they are the same diameter.
As has been said several times now, you are far better off fixing the balance you have...
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Deggsy1969
·It will depend on what central seconds version the balance is from - they are not all the same with respect to the balances...
280 uses a 260 balance.
281 uses a 262 balance.
283 uses a 265 balance.
284 uses a 265 balance.
285 uses a 268 balance - smooth balance.
286 uses a 269 balance - smooth balance.
When it comes to the roller table, there's not enough information to tell you if they all use the same one, or if they are different. If you remove the roller from the original and the donor balance, you can measure the staffs to see if they are the same diameter.
As has been said several times now, you are far better off fixing the balance you have...
Hello Archer.
Thanks for the above information, which at first I was quite confused by and so I went off researching those numbers. I had no idea that there were quite so many variants of the 30T2. This spurned me into downloading all the data sheets for these calibres plus others in the 30T2 family and compiling a table of the different combinations of pallet, staff, roller table and bal.spring (please see attached).
From this exercise, what has now become evident is that the early non para choc 30T2 version has a balance completely compatible with Cal. 262 and the Cal. 281. I verified this, as the omega data sheets for those two calibres show pictorially that the balance cock isn't installed with a shock protection device, whereas all other calibre photos did show the shock protection devices fitted.
It is a pity that the roller used on the 30T2 (non para choc) isn't fitted with roller part number 100.1324, as this is used quite commonly throughout the family of calibres (260, 216, 265, 266, 267, 268, 269, 280, 283, 285 and 285). Nonetheless I have now widened my chances of finding a suitable roller from just the 30T2 to now include Cal. 262 or Cal. 281 as well. Of course the alternative is to find an omega impulse jewel 100.1322 (or equivalent). I don't know how critical it is to have this exact jewel, or whether an alternative would suffice?
Once again thank you for your information which spurned me in the right direction with my research.
Kind regards,
Darren
Table of Omega 30mm Bal.Staff and Roller Compatibility.
Thanks to Skunk Prince for help.
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ChrisN
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Deggsy1969
·Once again thank you.
Kind regards
Darren
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Deggsy1969
·Just for completeness, anyone who may be using this thread for reference in the future may also find this of use (but please check accuracy first if you intend to purchase parts based on it!)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Summary of Omega 30mm Movement Family
Movements with sub-seconds:
Movements with center seconds
Hope this helps.
Regards, Darren
-----------------------------------------------------------
Summary of Omega 30mm Movement Family
Movements with sub-seconds:
- 30: 15 jewels, bi-metallic compensation balance no shock protection.
- 30T1: 15 jewels, bi-metallic compensation balance, no shock protection.
- 30T2: 15 jewels, bi metallic compensation balance, no shock protection.
- 30T2PC: 15 jewels, incabloc shoch protection, monometallic balance.
- 30T2RG: (=262) 17 jewels, chronometer, no shock protection.
- 260: = 30T2PC from 1949, rose gold plated movement.
- 261: 17 jewels, antimagnetic.
- 262: (= 30T2RG) from 1949.
- 265: 15 jewels, antimagnetic.
- 266: 17 jewels, antimagnetic.
- 267: 17 jewels, antimagnetic, jewelled main plate.
- 268: 17 jewels, antimagnetic, ring balance, Breguet overcoil hairspring.
- 269: 17 jewels, antimagnetic, ring balance, flat hairspring.
Movements with center seconds
- 30SC: 16 jewels, bi-metallic comp. balance, no shock protection.
- 30SCT1: 16 jewels, bi-metallic comp. balance, no shock protection.
- 30SCT2: 16 jewels, bi-metallic comp. balance, no shock protection.
- 30SCT2PC: (=280) 17 jewels, incabloc shock protection, monometallic balance.
- 30SCT2RG: (=281) 17 jewels, chronometer, no shock protection.
- 280: (= 30SCT2PC) from 1949. PC means pare choc or 'shock protection'
- 281: (= 30SCT2RG) from 1949. RG means special regulator on balance cock, no shock protection fitted.
- 283: 17 jewels, antimagnetic.
- 284: 17 jewels, antimagnetic, jewelled main plate.
- 285: 17 jewels, ring balance, Breguet overcoil hairspring.
- 286: 17 jewels, ring balance, flat hairspring.
Hope this helps.
Regards, Darren
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watchyouwant
·Hello thanks for your help so far. Someone has stepped forward and offered a balance with good condition staff and roller table (impulse jewel intact). However there is no balance spring and the balance screws have been robbed. It was taken from a 30T2(SC). I am therefore planning to use the roller table and wonder if the centre seconds variant will be compatible to a 30T2 sub-seconds variant? Regards, Darren
How long will you need to realize, that a cpl. Donor is your best option ? You are already half way down the Rabbit hole....
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Deggsy1969
·How long will you need to realize, that a cpl. Donor is your best option ? You are already half way down the Rabbit hole....
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ChrisN
·Probably Ronda 1858?
Best to cut the staff out with a lathe if you have the confidence as the Platax can broach the hole in the balance and can lead to more work when truing the balance later, or a loose staff. However, if you've used it before then this may be the safest way for you. I've never used one as was taught to do it on the lathe. Good luck!
By the way, very few people on the site are watchmakers - mainly collectors and some hobbyists. I think there are only a few of us who've done this as a business. Out of interest, which country are you in?
Cheers, Chris
Best to cut the staff out with a lathe if you have the confidence as the Platax can broach the hole in the balance and can lead to more work when truing the balance later, or a loose staff. However, if you've used it before then this may be the safest way for you. I've never used one as was taught to do it on the lathe. Good luck!
By the way, very few people on the site are watchmakers - mainly collectors and some hobbyists. I think there are only a few of us who've done this as a business. Out of interest, which country are you in?
Cheers, Chris
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Deggsy1969
·Probably Ronda 1858?
Best to cut the staff out with a lathe if you have the confidence as the Platax can broach the hole in the balance and can lead to more work when truing the balance later, or a loose staff. However, if you've used it before then this may be the safest way for you. I've never used one as was taught to do it on the lathe. Good luck!
By the way, very few people on the site are watchmakers - mainly collectors and some hobbyists. I think there are only a few of us who've done this as a business. Out of interest, which country are you in?
Cheers, Chris
Thanks Chris. I have done both methods but the only thing I don't like about the lathe is that you're very close to a spinning wheel whilst your focus and field of view through the loupe is on the staff. Ordinarily, cutting blue steel rod isn't so bad, but I lose my nerve near the rim of the balance. Also, I did mess one up entirely when I slipped the grave and applied a little too much pressure, and that was the end of him 😀 Altogether better and safer (but out of my affordability) is the Molfres Milling Machine. Maybe if they start making these in china I will buy one. Im in the UK by the way. Kind regards, Darren.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerBest to cut the staff out with a lathe if you have the confidence as the Platax can broach the hole in the balance and can lead to more work when truing the balance later, or a loose staff.
Agreed 100%
Punching a staff out is hack work IMO...even with a fancy tool.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerOut of curiosity, would soaking the balance in an alum solution be a good/better option in this case if someone didn't want to go the lathe route?
For any balance that doesn't have steel as part of the wheel, it's the method I use all the time...it is 100% risk free.
