30T2 Balance Repair or Replacement- Advice Please

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Thanks Chris. I have done both methods but the only thing I don't like about the lathe is that you're very close to a spinning wheel whilst your focus and field of view through the loupe is on the staff. Ordinarily, cutting blue steel rod isn't so bad, but I lose my nerve near the rim of the balance. Also, I did mess one up entirely when I slipped the grave and applied a little too much pressure, and that was the end of him 😀 Altogether better and safer (but out of my affordability) is the Molfres Milling Machine. Maybe if they start making these in china I will buy one. Im in the UK by the way. Kind regards, Darren.
Hi Darren

As you're in UK, one company that are very helpful but you may not know of is Gleave in London.
https://gleave.london/

We've all damaged parts in the early days so I wouldn't worry about that...

I'm also in UK (Somerset) so if you get stuck for something and think I might be able to help, let me know.

Best wishes, Chris
 
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For any balance that doesn't have steel as part of the wheel, it's the method I use all the time...it is 100% risk free.
Based on this thread I am now attempting to use this method on a scrap balance. I had good luck using this to remove some screws and have the bath sitting idle. Does seem to take a bit of time and I notice discoloration on the balance itself making it look more brassy. It is a once piece balance with the nub not slotted timing screws.

The problem with staking is that it often cracks the rim. I noticed a bunch of the old balances in the scrap drawer have cracked or distorted holes. I played around a bit with an AS balance with mixed results. Not sure the replacement staff was what the bottle said it was. As noted above there are also issues with inc vs non inc staffs.

With the lathe I remember I liked to turn from the thicker hub side and turn the whole thing off. The swaged side is often dinged up.
 
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Does seem to take a bit of time and I notice discoloration on the balance itself making it look more brassy.

While the staff is being dissolved, I can be working on lots of other watches that are in the shop - it actually allows me to do 2 things at once.

I have not experienced any discolouration of parts using this method.
 
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If you are re-staffing a watch for which no replacement staff can be had, it can be useful to remove the staff on the lathe, so you end up with a sample as you search for a replacement staff. I’ve never used alum to remove a balance staff.
 
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Agreed 100%

Punching a staff out is hack work IMO...even with a fancy tool.

😁 Of course if the rivoting is significant, then you don't just blast it through the balance hub, that would me mindless. A degree of common sense gets applied. Do you think Bergeon would create such a tool if it was for hacking out the stem? Would Rolex accreditation want to test that a watchmaker is proficient in its use if they see it as hacking? 🤦. I can see snobbery runs high here. Not for me. Im off.
 
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Based on this thread I am now attempting to use this method on a scrap balance. I had good luck using this to remove some screws and have the bath sitting idle. Does seem to take a bit of time and I notice discoloration on the balance itself making it look more brassy. It is a once piece balance with the nub not slotted timing screws.

The problem with staking is that it often cracks the rim. I noticed a bunch of the old balances in the scrap drawer have cracked or distorted holes. I played around a bit with an AS balance with mixed results. Not sure the replacement staff was what the bottle said it was. As noted above there are also issues with inc vs non inc staffs.

With the lathe I remember I liked to turn from the thicker hub side and turn the whole thing off. The swaged side is often dinged up.
If its a bimetallic balance (30T2 is) it is compound of brass outer and steel inner. Brass will certainly be ok, but the steel will need to be closely watched otherwise it might end up just like the staff.
 
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😁 Of course if the rivoting is significant, then you don't just blast it through the balance hub, that would me mindless. A degree of common sense gets applied. Do you think Bergeon would create such a tool if it was for hacking out the stem? Would Rolex accreditation want to test that a watchmaker is proficient in its use if they see it as hacking? 🤦. I can see snobbery runs high here. Not for me. Im off.

Here’s your coat, what’s your hurry?
 
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Here’s your coat, what’s your hurry?
Oh you've crawled back out, again nothing to add. This is getting to be a habit isn't it. LOL
 
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😁 Of course if the rivoting is significant, then you don't just blast it through the balance hub, that would me mindless. A degree of common sense gets applied. Do you think Bergeon would create such a tool if it was for hacking out the stem? Would Rolex accreditation want to test that a watchmaker is proficient in its use if they see it as hacking? 🤦. I can see snobbery runs high here. Not for me. Im off.

By all means, if you want to leave that's your choice. But if you are put off because some people on a forum give an opinion, you might be over reacting a bit. For the most part people here have tried to help you, putting their own time and effort into doing that.

To your arguments, Bergeon is in business to make money, and last time I checked, they were not the arbiters of what is a good method of removing a staff. There have been plenty of absolutely terrible watchmaking tools made over the years, so the fact that someone makes a tool for a particular purpose doesn't mean it's a good tool - that's just not logical.

What is logical, is to look at evidence. These photos were taken by another watchmaker, but illustrate the issue with punching out the balance well. Here a balance staff has been removed with a Molfres, so the hub has been ground off. If you look at the rivet end, you can see how much of the flare there is that is well below the spot where the rivet typically breaks off when you punch it out. That is going to be forced through the hole in the balance - there's no doubt of that...



Here is another balance that the watchmaker removed by punching it out. You can see that the rivet didn't really break off cleanly...



You can see that the enlarged part of the rivet would be larger than the hole in the balance, and would be forced through it. The rivet has to be solid enough to ensure that it doesn't work loose, so therefore is going to be "significant" if the staff has been installed correctly.

You may be fine punching out a staff and fitting a new one once, but in the process you will likely enlarge the hole in the balance, and now the next staff replacement is going to be more difficult for the next guy. You mentioned Rolex and their approval of the Platax - Rolex wants watches repaired quickly, so like any brand they will do whatever takes the least amount of time. If they only get one restaffing from a balance using this method, then they don't really care - they just put a new balance in the watch next time or use a new wheel.

Such appeals to authority as Bergeon or Rolex are not sound arguments, really.

Now when you are working on a watch like this one, where parts have been discontinued for a long time, and new balances are not readily available, using the least risky method would be wise. My approach personally is to use methods that have the least potential for damage. On a balance like this, it would be a Molfres, or the lathe, and on any that I'm able to, alum is used.
 
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What is logical, is to look at evidence. These photos were taken by another watchmaker, but illustrate the issue with punching out the balance well. Here a balance staff has been removed with a Molfres, so the hub has been ground off. If you look at the rivet end, you can see how much of the flare there is that is well below the spot where the rivet typically breaks off when you punch it out. That is going to be forced through the hole in the balance - there's no doubt of that...

Hello Archer. Since you have obviously taken a lot of time and effort to put that explanation together, I thought it would be rude to simply read it, and then not say thank you. I vaguely recollect seeing those photos in a rather lengthy and well written document on the subject of balance renovation some years ago, ( 4 or 5 maybe). The document went into the details of facing off the staff and relieving the rivotted portion prior to pressing the remaining stub through. Also there was a section on chemically etching the staff out. I'm sure I have it squirrelled away somewhere and if I can, I'll put it here for completeness, since it did seem to fall in line with your preferred method. I can see that the lathe method has clear advantages. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain it here. Kind regards, Darren
 
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When removing a staff in a lathe, you probably already know but, don't try and cut the rivet side. Work on the other side and take it very slowly, obviously.

I thought Al had written an explanation somewhere on here and it's in this link.
https://omegaforums.net/threads/basic-watchmaking-tips-replacing-a-balance-staff.96778/

He's explained it as well as anyone could in my opinion. I usually use Alum where I can but sometimes you need the lathe. I hope you manage to get it together.

Cheers, Chris
 
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Always great write-ups from Al. Which just tells me ... Damn, I need that staking set ASAP!
 
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I am learning the limitations of my staking set that does not have the reversable feature.

I let the 'good' landeron balance soak all day in the alum while I worked in the garden today. Will be interesting to see how it turns out.
 
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Hello all. I thought I’d just follow up on the progress of my original post a few weeks back.

The gentleman who had the uncomfortable learning experience of putting an Omega 30T2 through the wash and spin, followed by tumble dryer cycle decided to do ahead with having the watch repaired and serviced (not overhaul service) which I was rather pleased about otherwise seemed a shame to let a lovely watch go to the knackers yard.

We sourced a new roller, staff, mainspring and whilst at it a generic crystal. Total costs under £45

The damaged roller and the staff with a broken pivot were replaced without a hitch and the balance ran perfectly true afterwards.

The balance spring reshaped quite well, and after a little work I managed to return it to being concentric with an almost perfect terminal curve. Just a few tweeks once installed onto the main plate and it was pleasingly flat. In fact, I couldn’t have hoped for a better outcome.

After installing the new mainspring, rebuild commenced and although I did find a small amount of corrosion on the minute wheel pinion, the owner was reluctant at this stage to seek another. I hand cleaned the wheel and the pinion giving special attention from the peg wood at 20x magnification. Fortunately all the pivots were rust free but they might ordinarily have received a burnish to restore form. As this wasn’t my personal watch, and only a service rather than overhaul, the pivots were not burnished.

I added a couple of turns to the crown, installed the balance cock and was delighted to see the 30T2 immediately had a heart beat. Using the slow motion video facility on my mobile phone I was pleased to see that the amplitude was 250 degrees straight off bat. Onto the time grapher, and a little nudge on the regulator brought the rate smartly into a horizontal line with just 0.3ms beat error. I can live with that! Dial up was very similar, but in the verticals it was quickly apparent some poise errors existed, although the owner was very relieved to see it running, and was happy to call it a day.

In summary a simple repair and another watch rescued. If this was my watch I’d have put a lot more time and work into it, (burnishing, poising, new minute wheel) but as a rescue repair carried out as a favour with parts acquired on a shoe string budget… overall a win win result, the owner happy and I’ve gained more experience.