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1963 or 64 Speedmaster help

Spacefruit
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Alphas vs Baton.

I would love to have a number, before which was alpha and after was baton. Common sense says early numbers are alpha and later number is baton, but this sort of assumption is unsupportable with evidence. Consensus decisions based on little evidence does not give sound conclusions.

I cannot find a correlation that can be verified.

This is understandable as so few watches were made, and even fewer have been observed with 100% provenance.

I have seen 2052's with Alphas that look original, and I have seen 19m versions with batons, that owners swear have not been altered.

The way I deal with this conundrum is to value alpha handed examples 2000-5000 more than baton hands - regardless of serial.

Here is a baton version, 19m serial, does it look original? Yes. But Is it? I cant say, so cant use it for evidence.

3-img_006.jpg
 
Archer
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H heller792
All I can say is that according to my mother in law the watch was never serviced

In my experience having many watches cross my bench that were claimed to have never been serviced, most often they have been serviced and the family history is incomplete.
 
Dan S
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Archer Archer
In my experience having many watches cross my bench that were claimed to have never been serviced, most often they have been serviced and the family history is incomplete.

I was offered a vintage Ultraman a couple of years ago with a 1990s service bezel from the original owner. He claimed that it had never been touched. 🙄 Even when I gave him a detailed explanation of the differences between that bezel and the original, he adamantly stuck with his story, so I can only assume that it was a memory issue, and not a deliberate fabrication.
 
H
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I will ask SImon if in his experience is it all genuine and if he thinks the watch has ever been serviced?
 
H
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I found this on Speedmaster 101

"A very rare reference, produced for about six months. Initially it is actually an unchanged 2998-62, but with a new Omega reference number in line with the new number system. Then, part way through the production run, the hand specifications changed from alpha to baton. I am unclear when this happened or if there is a pattern to which hands were fitted when. I also do not think the serial can dictate which hand set is/was/should be fitted. I now believe that either handset on any serial is possible. While intuitively, we might think that the alpha’s are on early watches and batons on later, there is so far not enough evidence based on known one owner watches."

https://speedmaster101.com/105-002/
 
Davidt
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H heller792
I found this on Speedmaster 101

"A very rare reference, produced for about six months. Initially it is actually an unchanged 2998-62, but with a new Omega reference number in line with the new number system. Then, part way through the production run, the hand specifications changed from alpha to baton. I am unclear when this happened or if there is a pattern to which hands were fitted when. I also do not think the serial can dictate which hand set is/was/should be fitted. I now believe that either handset on any serial is possible. While intuitively, we might think that the alpha’s are on early watches and batons on later, there is so far not enough evidence based on known one owner watches."

https://speedmaster101.com/105-002/

FYI, member @Spacefruit who commented above is the author of SP101.
 
H
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Spacefruit Spacefruit
Alphas vs Baton.

I would love to have a number, before which was alpha and after was baton. Common sense says early numbers are alpha and later number is baton, but this sort of assumption is unsupportable with evidence. Consensus decisions based on little evidence does not give sound conclusions.

I cannot find a correlation that can be verified.

This is understandable as so few watches were made, and even fewer have been observed with 100% provenance.

I have seen 2052's with Alphas that look original, and I have seen 19m versions with batons, that owners swear have not been altered.

The way I deal with this conundrum is to value alpha handed examples 2000-5000 more than baton hands - regardless of serial.

Here is a baton version, 19m serial, does it look original? Yes. But Is it? I cant say, so cant use it for evidence.

3-img_006.jpg


Thanks for the post, I understand the difficulty in this and I too only have the story that my Mother In Law can tell us, I have asked Simon Freese if he can give me his opinion if the watch is in its original state or if its ever been serviced before. I took a couple of more pics before it was sent off for reference.
 
20230424_145301.jpg 20230424_145319.jpg 20230424_145332.jpg 20230424_145343.jpg
Davidt
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I have no dog in the fight either way, but you can clearly see small marks where someone has tried to remove the case back. Of course this could be a watchmaker quickly removing the back or a layperson try with pliers at the kitchen table.
 
pdxleaf
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Davidt Davidt
FYI, member @Spacefruit who commented above is the author of SP101.

I love it when this happens. I remember when I first learned that Spacefruit and Speedmaster101 were the same guy. I couldn't believe that this was the same guy who kindly responded to all my questions about a watch I was looking at. Since then there have been hundreds of others who have kindly offered their expertise and advice to me also.

Gotta love the OF.
 
SOG53
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H heller792
I will ask SImon if in his experience is it all genuine and if he thinks the watch has ever been serviced?
I wouldnt really worry about whether the hands are original or replaced, you know that either hand style is found on these and the experts are telling us nobody can really know by the serial numbers- so it doesnt matter, other than someone may be willing to pay you more for the alpha hands were they present. But they are not, and you have a great family treasure to enjoy.
 
ortope
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Could someone explain to me how the crown has be replaced without removing the case back!?
This is my watch with the service crown installed, like the one shown by the opener:
IMG_6092.jpg


The same watch with a A1 crown, as it should be:
IMG_6101.jpg


The only version of the ref. 105.002-62 that for sure were originally fitted with baton hands are the variants with the "high" Swiss Made"
dial version and a serial beyond 20.520.2XX IMHO.

A question for experts:
Could someone tell me the difference in between a 105.002 and a 105.003 case?

Cheers
 
ortope
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Indeed very interesting, thank you for sharing.
It must have been an overlap of the two references 105.002-62 and 105.003-63.

In some rare 105.012-63 high "Swiss Made" dial versions can also be spotted:
Here my 105.012-63 "Swiss Made" with serial 20.520.4XX, that a friend of mine bought for me in a pawn shop in Bogotà.
The extract tells that the watch was originally sold in Spain:
1c964c94-d78a-4f68-b4e7-d83be1268942.jpg

The watch is undergoing a well needed revision of the 321 movement and a case restoration...

Cheers
 
BLOW UP
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H heller792
Thanks for the post, I understand the difficulty in this and I too only have the story that my Mother In Law can tell us, I have asked Simon Freese if he can give me his opinion if the watch is in its original state or if its ever been serviced before. I took a couple of more pics before it was sent off for reference.

If it were mine, and I really wish it was😉 I would do the following:
it has a service crown so just replace it like for like; and apart from service with STS who are pretty good and have worked on a few of my watches, polish the hesalite, and keep everything else as is, and really cherish it 😉
Good luck!
 
padders
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Umm the post above by ortope makes a pertinent point. There is no way the OP watch left the factory with a 32 tooth service crown, ergo it was at some time serviced, which is rather at odds with the assertion that it was never opened. It doesn't follow that any of the other parts are necessarily not original, but that and the marks to the caseback do rather suggest some kind of previous intervention, regardless of the family collective memory otherwise.
 
Dan S
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padders padders
Umm the post above by ortope makes a pertinent point. There is no way the OP watch left the factory with a 32 tooth service crown, ergo it was at some time serviced, which is rather at odds with the assertion that it was never opened. It doesn't follow that any of the other parts are necessarily not original, but that and the marks to the caseback do rather suggest some kind of previous intervention, regardless of the family collective memory otherwise.

I don't think the paint is missing from the hands (near the center of the dial) just because they have been sitting untouched in the watch.
 
SOG53
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So the evidence of a prior service includes a service crown, toolmarks on caseback, and central paint loss on the hands. While tempted to conclude "case closed", a more correct statement here is "case OPENED"

But this still does not prove that the hands are replacements, with the uncertainty of date of transition.
 
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