1940s Cyma 14kt dress watch - Any love for vintage Cyma?

nkb · Apr 11, 2020

Hi all,

Calling on the vintage Cyma experts/enthusiasts, anyone love this brand?

I have found this IMO beautiful looking 14kt dress watch that I may be interested in as I am attracted to the "art deco" style of the era and I love dress watches!

The thing is I know very little about Cyma vintage but the research I have done so far indicates that the dial, hands and crown on this one are original. Dial is a bit dirty but IMO that validates the age of the dial and points to its originality.
I do not have photos yet of the movement but it is likely to be a cal. 414 15 jewel manual wind?

One photo shows that the dial is about 38mm so does that mean it is a "jumbo" case?

I stress that, like everyone else, condition is important but not at the level of serious collectors and yes, good value is important, but I don't mind paying over market value for something that has serious appeal in reasonable condition!

The last photo is an advert from the 1940s for a similar model that I used to compare details with this example.

With all that in mind I would really appreciate comments/opinions!

Tony C. · Apr 11, 2020

I own a number of vintage CYMA, and find them to often represent excellent value in the vintage market. The example you posted appears genuine, with the possible exception of the crown.

I would not suggest "overpaying" for a watch that is not in excellent or better condition, though, as it should not be necessary.

The case is very similar to this 18k Chronometre that I own:

nkb · Apr 11, 2020

Tony C.
I own a number of vintage CYMA, and find them to often represent excellent value in the vintage market. The example you posted appears genuine, with the possible exception of the crown.

I would not suggest "overpaying" for a watch that is not in excellent or better condition, though, as it should not be necessary.

The case is very similar to this 18k Chronometre that I own:

Thanks Tony C

I like your 18K chronometre, lovely!

Looking at the condition of the watch I presented here what should I be paying without actually "overpaying" based on your experience which is way more than mine!

Regards Neal

Spruce · Apr 12, 2020

Here’s mine. It’s a more recent model. I believe it’s 60/70s. The one drawback is that it doesn’t handwind, but only self-winds.

Tony C. · Apr 12, 2020

nkb
Thanks Tony C

I like your 18K chronometre, lovely!

Looking at the condition of the watch I presented here what should I be paying without actually "overpaying" based on your experience which is way more than mine!

Regards Neal

Thanks Neal. Seasoned collectors factor in several variables when attempting to refine values, including originality, condition, size (which matters both to the end user and the market), supply (i.e. common, rare, or somewhere in-between), and approximate values of similar watches that have been sold.

Looking at the CYMA that you have posted, and being somewhat familiar with the market, I would say the following. It is a nice, mid-century design from a manufacturer that is often undervalued in the market. By the latter I mean that unlike Omega, Longines, Rolex, and a few other manufacturers, there is no cachet (or "prestige") value added due to the brand name.

I believe that you have misinterpreted the rough measurement guide provided by the seller. The watch case, excluding the crown, appears to be a small, at roughly ~30mm. It was a mans watch when manufactured, but these days only a small subset of collectors are interested in watches of that size, and outside of Japan (which is anomalous), such watches trade at relatively deep discounts.

The condition appears to be good, though the discoloration of the gold can likely be mitigated with a light polish. The condition of the movement is a factor, and cannot be assessed without a good photo. The dial, which is often paramount to collectors, shows some scratches along with natural patina, and that reduces the watch's value as a result.

In terms of originality, crowns are generally not of great importance, but given that this one is a likely replacement, and not a particularly sympathetic one, it does degrade the value somewhat.

The style of the dial, hands and case are neither rare, nor common, but lean closer to the less common. I'm not going to research similar models that have been sold, as I have a reasonable handle on approximate values.

Given the size and condition, the two most important variables in this instance, I would say that it is worth somewhere between $250 and $450. I can't really be more precise, as we would need photos of the movement, and there will always be a range depending on whether a watch is does through auction, etc.

The are many smaller (e.g. 32-33mm) CYMA, in better condition, available for <$500. Most will be steel, but that is typically more desirable in the vintage market, so they provide context.

As a final note, the value of gold has increased sharply over the past couple of years, and, in my view, will continue to rise. There is a lag in the vintage watch market, but I do expect that gold cased watches, and especially 18k, will benefit from the trend. Steel has been much more fashionable for years in the collector market, but the spread will narrow, and particularly in the less expensive models.

nkb · Apr 12, 2020

Wow!
Thanks so much Tony! You are truly are an inspiration for would be collectors.

I really appreciate the time you have taken to provide an in depth assessment of this Cyma and a great insight into vintage watch appraisal 👍👍 which can only be had by vast experience.

I see now that the size is roughly 30mm , big over sight by me!
That changes how I feel about the watch ,its small.

FYI the sellers price is $525 (an antiques shop) I could push for a 10% discount at best.
Then on top of that I would need to get it serviced at about $100.

Vitezi · Apr 13, 2020

nkb
Calling on the vintage Cyma experts/enthusiasts, anyone love this brand?

You may enjoy these threads:
https://omegaforums.net/threads/cyma-tavannes.30975/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/cyma-watch.41216/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/34mm-vintage-cyma.54813/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/jumbo-cyma-dress-watch.72983/
https://omegaforums.net/threads/never-thought-i’d-love-an-insurance-salesman-cyma-content.77115/

TropicConnie · Apr 14, 2020

The proportions look right for a jumbo. I had one in a chromed brass case that you can read about in one of the threads linked above. These were fitted with 15''' pocket watch movements (cal 58x) and were made in the wartime for civilian sale as much of Cyma's production line was devoted to the production of the cal. 234 for WWW and other military watches.

The 586K is my favourite manually wound movement of all time, the large size not only means it needs an appropriately modern case size, but also it means there is room for a huge balance wheel for better timekeeping. Plus, at only 3.4 mm thick, it's very thin by any standard. Not to mention the finishing; Geneva stripes and gold chatons securing the jewels! I could go on, but I'd probably bore you.

nkb · Apr 15, 2020

TropicConnie
The proportions look right for a jumbo. I had one in a chromed brass case that you can read about in one of the threads linked above. These were fitted with 15''' pocket watch movements (cal 58x) and were made in the wartime for civilian sale as much of Cyma's production line was devoted to the production of the cal. 234 for WWW and other military watches.

The 586K is my favourite manually wound movement of all time, the large size not only means it needs an appropriately modern case size, but also it means there is room for a huge balance wheel for better timekeeping. Plus, at only 3.4 mm thick, it's very thin by any standard. Not to mention the finishing; Geneva stripes and gold chatons securing the jewels! I could go on, but I'd probably bore you.

Bore me? On the contrary!

I had a look at the thread showing your chrome cased jumbo and the proportions of the example I presented look very similar indeed!

The ruler measurement is only a rough indication of the case size especially since it is placed apart from the watch which can cause error in the size estimation ( by as much as 3mm I would say).

The Cyma 586K movement is beautiful, I love the Geneva stripes!

I find myself increasingly attracted to the watch I presented and am considering getting it even though I dont have pics of the movement.

Thanks for your insight into this undervalued but competent vintage brand!

nkb · Apr 16, 2020

TropicConnie
The proportions look right for a jumbo. I had one in a chromed brass case that you can read about in one of the threads linked above. These were fitted with 15''' pocket watch movements (cal 58x) and were made in the wartime for civilian sale as much of Cyma's production line was devoted to the production of the cal. 234 for WWW and other military watches.

The 586K is my favourite manually wound movement of all time, the large size not only means it needs an appropriately modern case size, but also it means there is room for a huge balance wheel for better timekeeping. Plus, at only 3.4 mm thick, it's very thin by any standard. Not to mention the finishing; Geneva stripes and gold chatons securing the jewels! I could go on, but I'd probably bore you.

Hi

Just an update for those interested:
Have a picture of the movement and inside case back (sorry not the clearest as incoming from the seller)

The movement appears to be in good condition which is good news!

Inside case back has the numbers:
43517 case number
102 reference

As for the movement number I cant at this stage pinpoint it.
Although it us similar to the cal 41x series movements which have dimensions of 15 inch or 23.3-23.7mm which means the case cant be a jumbo size!

I have put a pic of cal 419 movement for comparison.
The only difference is cal 419 has 15 jewels and my example has 17 jewels which is confusing!

Any input would be much appreciated, thanks!

My example

Cyma cal 419

TropicConnie · Apr 17, 2020

Jumbo or not, I'd still jump at that! Those hands with the square tips are a classic Cyma feature I haven't seen widely in any other brand. Plus that movement is super high quality - I'd put it on equal footing with any movement from IWC or Hamilton of the same vintage.

nkb · Apr 18, 2020

TropicConnie
Jumbo or not, I'd still jump at that! Those hands with the square tips are a classic Cyma feature I haven't seen widely in any other brand. Plus that movement is super high quality - I'd put it on equal footing with any movement from IWC or Hamilton of the same vintage.

Couldn't agree more!
What swung it for me is seeing that movement with the Geneva stripes and gold chatons housing the jewels. And seeing that it is in very good condition!
And yes those hands are almost distinctly vintage cyma and are very attractive.

I can overlook the replacement crown.
The case size is confirmed at 32mm and I have negotiated a price of $478, so I'm going for it!😀

DManzaluni · May 13, 2020

Yes, I suppose you could say that I like Tavannes watches, but they are a very difficult sell!

Here's a military set, one from WW1 and one from WW2

DManzaluni · May 13, 2020

And I can't find/supply a current photo, but I just sold this Cyma (also military?), with an UNUSUAL Tavannes cal. 3842 17 jewel movement which seems to be based on a Valjoux 22

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324110746666

DManzaluni · May 13, 2020

Oh, and here's a rather nice little trench-like watch with a somewhat rare cal.033 movement for which I am looking for a couple of hands. (I wonder why Ranfft doesn't list this movement?)

It had a Wadsworth Referee case alleged to be reserved for chronometers, though I can't see that much special (though there is a nice monogram) about this movement?

Still, at least this movement will be completed: I have a nice, beautifully cased 15 jewel cal.335 with a 72 hour power reserve which has got on top of me a bit and whiehI will probably sell when I get around to it.

nkb · May 17, 2020

DManzaluni
Yes, I suppose you could say that I like Tavannes watches, but they are a very difficult sell!

Good to hear from you and learn more about vintage Cymas! Like the Wadsworth case!

I presume they are a difficult sell because they fly under the radar as they are seen as a lesser brand.

However, I agree with TropicConnie that the quality of the vintage Cyma movements is right up there with other vintage movements like IWC.

For the piece I posted in this thread I think it is a Spillman case which is also high quality.

I am buying it because of the quality and I like it and not put off if it is a hard sell!

I have found a vintage Cyma box for the watch and will send pictures of the watch and box once I have them.
The only thing I need is to find a correct crown.
In your experience would it be hard to find it?

NT931 · May 17, 2020

I do rather like my two vintage Cymas, the first is 37mm, the second 38mm.

Some of them had those unusual hands seen in the 2nd watch; some Tavannes watches had them too. Quirky but cool!

WhatsApp Image 2020-05-17 at 9.20.05 PM(1).jpeg

WhatsApp Image 2020-05-17 at 9.20.05 PM.jpeg

DManzaluni · May 17, 2020

Sorry, I really wouldn't know how to find a vintage case part such as a crown. Case parts are generally a massive problem, and except for some Omega dealers world-wide that stocked crowns, no one really has them. I am having to have one made currently for my father's Vacheron which the company wont supply without the owner sending the watch back to them for a service costing as much as the watch is worth:

The situation is so dire, with NO ONE having these crowns that people are perpetrating this catastrophe on their Vacherons!

Disastrouts Vacheron repair for los crown.png

t

I am not one who believes that a beautiful watch suddenly becomes a frankenwatch because someone has had to fit, for example, an identical Bestfit hand. I also, controversially for this forum, dont believe that a watch becomes fundamentally worthless and completely unmarketable immediately it has the sort of redial which needs an electron microscope to correctly identify as such, - but this is a deplorable bastardisation!

So you are kinda lucky with your Cyma needing a crown in that theoretically you might find one.

I am offered Cymas all the time and at inexpensive prices but curiously, they rarely seem to have specifically Cyma crowns?

I agree, Cyma were high quality watches, not middling ones. However in the old days, companies like Tavannes, Glycine, C H Meylan were regarded as the highest quality watch manufacturers and Cyma never really fit into that category.

DManzaluni · May 17, 2020

Here's a few more

Alius · May 17, 2020

Here's one of mine with the cyma 030

1940s Cyma 14kt dress watch - Any love for vintage Cyma?

nkb

Tony C.

nkb

Spruce

Tony C.

nkb

Vitezi

TropicConnie

nkb

nkb

TropicConnie

nkb

DManzaluni

DManzaluni

DManzaluni

nkb

NT931

DManzaluni

DManzaluni

Alius

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