Community Stories

1675 previously owned by President of Mexico.

Locked
Chris75
Posts
203
Likes
107
993watch 993watch
You, in your post and Orchi’s pasted IG post directly imply the sellers did not get the watch as claimed,
direct from the family. That is saying they are misrepresenting their claim of direct family acquisition and therefore, the equivalent of calling them liars.

Now you will “back off”, after proverbially pulling the pin on a grenade and tip toeing away....uhhh, ok.

On the other hand, I get what Dan S. means about proof of provenance. I guess the owner would have the Robb Report article for starters. I agree that a written attestation of some sort from the family would strengthen the chain of custody documentation even further.

I don't know if you are in good faith or playing it dumb.

I am not calling anyone liar, just stating some facts:

1) The dial from the all pictures of Mexican president looks like a Mk4 while the one offered is a Mk3, this concern was already diffused between collectors months ago when this watch originally surfaced.

2) This watch was offered ( or, as I wrote, at least pictures were circulating among dealers/ collectors) months ago, around September 2019, that's why some people were already aware of the dial issue.

I am not saying that I have evidence that Mr.WInd swapped the dial (on the contrary I know the dial was already this one when the watch made its first appearance) or that the watch didn't come from the family of Mexican president originally.
Maybe there was a broker or another dealer in the middle: it wouldn't be a big issue if it passed one or two hands before coming to Mr.Wind if provenance was solid, it wouldn't be a lie saying it comes directly from the family, dealers helps each other all the time.

Of course I know what I am talking about, and of course there are other people aware, but I think you understand that I can't force them to intervene.

Robb Report article just reported the sale, they didn't do any kind of specific research, as they aren't vintage watch experts or so inside the market.

Hodinkee article is imo just defending a friend and a former business partner, which for free press isn't such a good thing.
 
georgetownhoya
Posts
107
Likes
265
Cam Barr and I purchased it from Kevin Acuna, who is a trusted friend of ours and hunts for vintage watches from all different sources. His watch dealer company is called Uberz and he specializes in vintage Rolex watches. In the case of this watch, Kevin was alerted by a store that a López Portillo had brought this watch in to sell. Kevin bought it directly from the López Portillo and he paid a finder’s fee/commission to the store. Kevin saw this person’s two government forms of identification and shortly thereafter offered it to Cam, who discussed the watch with me and we decided to buy it. Kevin had offered it to a couple people before Cam and me, one of whom said they wanted to see the watch on an Oyster bracelet and Kevin put it on a bracelet to show that person, but after that man passed on the watch Kevin put the original Jubilee back on it. We are going to protect the López Portillo individuals’s privacy and that’s the end of it. Period.

The watch has the same bezel insert and all parts that were on the watch when Kevin purchased it. There was/is some paint on the bezel in that photo Kevin previously had on Instagram, but you can clearly see it is the same bezel insert. To me, the photos of President Lopez Portillo suggest a Mark 3 radial dial, to others Mark 4, and I doubt that we will ever solve it. Remember about five years ago the photo circulating the internet about whether “The Dress” is blue and black or white and gold? Depending on your brain wiring, you saw it one way or the other. We are basically in that situation now.

I don't know what else to say here, but love the watch and believe it is one of the most amazing GMT-Masters in the world. I plan to continue trying to find great vintage watches and continue to promote vintage watches and grow knowledge about our passion. Thank you.
 
ATWG
Posts
2,212
Likes
6,890
Look, I'm not one to defecate on anyone's desk/house/business. I am a passionate watch enthusiast with a slight bias towards Rolex GMTs, specifically MK3's. I keep an extensive library of pictures for my own safekeeping.

Where the seller has lost credibility to me is by indicating to have purchased the watch directly from the family. If that's now not the case, and was purchased by another dealer who bought it directly from the family, I'm still OK with it. After all, we all like stories, right?

However, if in fact, this was purchased directly from the family and the seller is now commanding a 3x premium due to its provenance, I'd imagine a letter from the family with a proper letterhead would have been provided. Thorough documentation linking the watch to the president is necessary at this asking price.

I suspect the lack of evidence is what's causing all the stir and speculation. If a copy of the government ID, as mentioned above, could be posted as evidence it would go a long way in re-establishing a level of mutual trust in the community.

I have for sure formulated my own opinion, it's a watch with a story.....

Best,
-A
Edited:
 
cristos71
Posts
7,900
Likes
35,850
All of my watches come (in)directly from the original owners families too, does that also make them more valuable? 😁
Edited:
 
georgetownhoya
Posts
107
Likes
265
@ATWG Just to be clear, although I'm not trying to parse words like Bill Clinton or something, I said the watch came directly from the family member, not that Cam and I purchased it from the family member directly. Cam and I both trust Kevin. As I stated above, we aren't going to post the ID here to protect that individual's privacy. Would you want to post your driver's license here for the internet to see?
 
janice&fred
Posts
4,593
Likes
10,810
Chris75 Chris75
I am not saying that I have evidence that Mr.WInd swapped the dial (on the contrary I know the dial was already this one when the watch made its first appearance) or that the watch didn't come from the family of Mexican president originally.
Maybe there was a broker or another dealer in the middle: it wouldn't be a big issue if it passed one or two hands before coming to Mr.Wind if provenance was solid, it wouldn't be a lie saying it comes directly from the family, dealers helps each other all the time.

That's all very nice of you to say, but you keep quoting Orchi who is stamping his feet that this is a fraud.

Naturally a dealer can't be in two places at one time, and if Eric got the watch thru a chain of agents and fellow dealers then it certainly is nothing to find fault in, contrary to Orchi's idiotic anonymous "birdie" reports. Who gives a shit...
 
ATWG
Posts
2,212
Likes
6,890
georgetownhoya georgetownhoya
@ATWG Just to be clear, although I'm not trying to parse words like Bill Clinton or something, I said the watch came directly from the family member, not that Cam and I purchased it from the family member directly. Cam and I both trust Kevin. As I stated above, we aren't going to post the ID here to protect that individual's privacy. Would you want to post your driver's license here for the internet to see?
I have nothing further to add, as I said, it's a very expensive watch with a story.

Good luck with your sale.
 
janice&fred
Posts
4,593
Likes
10,810
ATWG ATWG
I have nothing further to add, as I said, it's a very expensive watch with a story.

And that's your viewpoint. However I and many will view the watch as it is presented...the ex president of Mexico's watch. Unless a member of that family came forward and stated the contrary, the notion, as Orchi is trying to put forward, that this is a hoax is ridiculous.
 
993watch
Posts
86
Likes
107
Chris 75- no I am not playing it "dumb". I stand by my earlier posts based on the content and tone shared by you at that time. I see Eric has clarified the direct from family acquisition accurately. Did it pass through someone else's hand, we know the answer to that is "yes" and that hand is claimed to have proof that it was from a family member. I agreed with another poster that a document from the family attesting to the watch's ownership would be an enhancement for the buyer to codify the chain of custody.

You continue to assert the dial was swapped by someone (you're not accusing Mr. Wind of that), yet unless you participated in said act or know who did the swapping... where's that proof? The debate about Mk3 or Mk4 between current and past pics is a matter of eyesight/opinion and likely to not be confirmed one way or the other based on the proof thus far. I still contend swapping those dials would be a very poor business decision, if one wanted to maximize the value of this particular watch and a different 1675.

I also read the thread on Cozmopak's 1675 that you kicked off in a similar fashion as this thread, seemingly right after joining the forum...creating an atmosphere of suspicion and in that case, your opinion wasn't solicited and I consider that bad form. Your motive seems similar to Orchi's tact of dropping a turd in the punchbowl. You also seem upset that reports of the watch have been covered by other sources and that's what happens when people like Eric have cultivated a network in the community based on their reputation.

Back to the watch... I haven't seen any proof that would cause me to believe the watch isn't what it's represented to be with the jubilee bracelet and dial it possessed when it came from the family. I haven't held it in my hands or studied it with a loupe. From the pics provided, it does appear to my eyes to be unpolished as claimed.
 
OMEGuy
Posts
2,086
Likes
2,897
The former minister of culture of Nigeria was a guest for a while during my community service in the retirement home. But he wasn't wearing a watch. He just wanted fresh orange juice all day long.
Edited:
 
Dan S
Posts
24,239
Likes
53,978
ATWG ATWG
However, if in fact, this was purchased directly from the family and the seller is now commanding a 3x premium due to its provenance, I'd imagine a letter from the family with a proper letterhead would have been provided. Thorough documentation linking the watch to the president is necessary at this asking price.

I suspect the lack of evidence is what's causing all the stir and speculation. If a copy of the government ID, as mentioned above, could be posted as evidence it would go a long way in re-establishing a level of mutual trust in the community.

I agree with you, Alex, that it is difficult to justify the price without rock solid provenance, but apparently the seller feels it would be an invasion of privacy to request/provide documentation at this point. Additionally, it's probably not practical to do so, since the watch has passed through several hands, and the seller already has his money. Hopefully the original buyer didn't overpay, given the lack of such documentation. My guess is that he was a careful buyer.

More generally, while the OP and Orchi seem to have questionable motives, it is pointless to feed them. Orchi is publicizing himself, everyone knows it, and 99% of us just treat his posts as entertainment that sometimes has a provocative grain of truth. The OP appears to have a personal agenda for some reason. Who cares. On the other hand, I think it's totally fair game to discuss the watch itself on a watch forum ... its condition, provenance, value, etc., and some interesting new information has emerged from the discussion, as often does. I'm incredibly impressed by serious and focused collectors like @ATWG who keep careful records of the watches they have observed, and I appreciate when they share their research.

Overall, it's an intriguing watch, and perhaps has the potential to tell us something about the state of the vintage watch market, and we can learn something as potential buyers and sellers. IMO, a seller shouldn't be too bothered by this sort of discussion. Even if some people say negative things, these threads actually give tremendous publicity to a watch and a seller, and provide the seller a unique opportunity to make a good impression on a community of collectors, most of whom are just reading the thread and soaking it in. Critical comments could potentially be informative to a seller, and the way a seller responds to critical comments speaks volumes about their professionalism.

Everyone can have their own opinion about this particular watch, whether it is one of the "most amazing" in the world, or just a nice example with a likely-but-undocumented connection to a 5th-tier historical figure. Personally, I don't feel that hyperbole is an effective way to promote a watch when talking to experienced collectors (and usually doesn't go over well on OF), but that's just my opinion. IG is a bubble where each influencer has a bunch of sycophants telling them how great their posts are; collector forums bring out more balanced opinions. This watch was discussed on RF, and didn't arouse much interest TBH. I appreciate Mr. Wind's continuing efforts in bringing vintage watches to the collector community. It's a business for him, but I sense that he also has a passion for it, and ultimately I hope that a collector emerges who values this watch enough so that everyone can be happy.
Edited:
 
Chris75
Posts
203
Likes
107
993watch 993watch
Chris 75- no I am not playing it "dumb". I stand by my earlier posts based on the content and tone shared by you at that time. I see Eric has clarified the direct from family acquisition accurately. Did it pass through someone else's hand, we know the answer to that is "yes" and that hand is claimed to have proof that it was from a family member. I agreed with another poster that a document from the family attesting to the watch's ownership would be an enhancement for the buyer to codify the chain of custody.

You continue to assert the dial was swapped by someone (you're not accusing Mr. Wind of that), yet unless you participated in said act or know who did the swapping... where's that proof? The debate about Mk3 or Mk4 between current and past pics is a matter of eyesight/opinion and likely to not be confirmed one way or the other based on the proof thus far. I still contend swapping those dials would be a very poor business decision, if one wanted to maximize the value of this particular watch and a different 1675.

I also read the thread on Cozmopak's 1675 that you kicked off in a similar fashion as this thread, seemingly right after joining the forum...creating an atmosphere of suspicion and in that case, your opinion wasn't solicited and I consider that bad form. Your motive seems similar to Orchi's tact of dropping a turd in the punchbowl. You also seem upset that reports of the watch have been covered by other sources and that's what happens when people like Eric have cultivated a network in the community based on their reputation.

Back to the watch... I haven't seen any proof that would cause me to believe the watch isn't what it's represented to be with the jubilee bracelet and dial it possessed when it came from the family. I haven't held it in my hands or studied it with a loupe. From the pics provided, it does appear to my eyes to be unpolished as claimed.

I really don't know what's your problem with me.

1) You accused me that I was falsely saying that Mr.Wind hasn't purchased the watch from the first owner, but now we know Mr.Wind bought the watch from a person that bought the watch from a shop that bough the watch from a relative of the first owner.
I knew it from the beginning but I was asked not to tell because some of the parts related didn't want to be involved.

2) In my opinion the dial of the watch in the pictures is a Mk4 and the watch is sold with a Mk3.
I know this was a concern for many of the people the watch was offered to in September, and I was told that someone believed that the dial was swapped at some point, but also here some of the parts related don't want to be involved.

3) Cozmopark's 1675 is a nice watch and I like it, I just said that it's not unpolished imo. Others forum members made the same comment in that thread, I really don't understand why you are fixating with me.
And by the way I joined the forum months earlier the thread.
But maybe you some problem with semantics: words like "right after" and "directly" maybe have a different meaning for you.

4) I don't know what are you talking about regarding the jubilee bracelet, I never talked about the bracelet (but yes some pictures of that watch circulated with another bracelet).

5) I am not upset that Hodinkee is defending a friend and former business partner as Eric Wind, it's just not my idea of independent and free press.
Edited:
 
WatchCor
Posts
733
Likes
1,457
giphy.gif

I feel like the cat reading this thread.

P.s. shameless repost from the Secursus thread
 
ATWG
Posts
2,212
Likes
6,890
Dan S Dan S
I agree with you, Alex, that it is difficult to justify the price without rock solid provenance, but apparently the seller feels it would be an invasion of privacy to request/provide documentation at this point. Additionally, it's probably not practical to do so, since the watch has passed through several hands, and the seller already has his money. Hopefully the original buyer didn't overpay, given the lack of such documentation. My guess is that he was a careful buyer.

More generally, while the OP and Orchi seem to have questionable motives, it is pointless to feed them. Orchi is publicizing himself, everyone knows it, and 99% of us just treat his posts as entertainment that sometimes has a provocative grain of truth. The OP appears to have a personal agenda for some reason. Who cares. On the other hand, I think it's totally fair game to discuss the watch itself on a watch forum ... its condition, provenance, value, etc., and some interesting new information has emerged from the discussion, as often does. I'm incredibly impressed by serious and focused collectors like @ATWG who keep careful records of the watches they have observed, and I appreciate when they share their research.

Overall, it's an intriguing watch, and perhaps has the potential to tell us something about the state of the vintage watch market, and we can learn something as potential buyers and sellers. IMO, a seller shouldn't be too bothered by this sort of discussion. Even if some people say negative things, these threads actually give tremendous publicity to a watch and a seller, and provide the seller a unique opportunity to make a good impression on a community of collectors, most of whom are just reading the thread and soaking it in. Critical comments could potentially be informative to a seller, and the way a seller responds to critical comments speaks volumes about their professionalism.

Everyone can have their own opinion about this particular watch, whether it is one of the "most amazing" in the world, or just a nice example with a likely-but-undocumented connection to a 5th-tier historical figure. Personally, I don't feel that hyperbole is an effective way to promote a watch when talking to experienced collectors (and usually doesn't go over well on OF), but that's just my opinion. IG is a bubble where each influencer has a bunch of sycophants telling them how great their posts are; collector forums bring out more balanced opinions. This watch was discussed on RF, and didn't arouse much interest TBH. I appreciate Mr. Wind's continuing efforts in bringing vintage watches to the collector community. It's a business for him, but I sense that he also has a passion for it, and ultimately I hope that a collector emerges who values this watch enough so that everyone can be happy.

Well said, Dan.

For me, it's all about the watch and my passing experience with it. Once I landed on the ground, I was compelled to look into my photo, conversation, and email archives to locate the presented picture. I knew I had, it was a matter of indexing.

When the watch was originally offered to me at substantially lower asking price, no documentation was ever discussed connecting it to the '5th tier political' figure (hope you don't mind the plagiarism.) Doesn't mean it didn't exist, but none was presented or discussed which is now at the center of discussion due to the increase in value and marketing. I passed on the watch and moved on, it wasn't for me then, it certainly isn't my cup of tea now.

Again, I have no ax to grind here, I'm an enthusiast much like most folks on the forum and have a vested interest to see where this sale ultimately settles. I love having this type of interaction with sellers to gain valuable insight into the hobby. They are truly at the forefront of information, and at times truly remarkable pieces emerge that are nothing but awe-worthy. Unfortunately, I don't find this as one of those instances.

I apologize if I'm defecating on the seller, but that is truly not my intent.

Best,
-A
 
ATWG
Posts
2,212
Likes
6,890
Lastly, it would extremely helpful if @Chris75 and @993watch could keep the banter down to focus on what matters most, the watch. If compelled to argue, pls PM each other.
 
993watch
Posts
86
Likes
107
ATWG ATWG
Lastly, it would extremely helpful if @Chris75 and @993watch could keep the banter down to focus on what matters most, the watch. If compelled to argue, pls PM each other.
ATWG, I’m not the only one bantering or that’s had an issue with how this thread started. I believe someone needs to hold other posters accountable for the content they share, conclusions reached and false accusations made directly toward myself, that are available for others to view. I agree that we should all get back to discussing the watch, based on facts and new information that becomes available. As an owner of a 1675, I also believe that I have some knowledge to share and debate on the subject.
 
Chris75
Posts
203
Likes
107
ATWG, I totally agree but I only shared some doubts on direct provenance and dial Mk compared to pictures, same concern that other collectors had months ago when the watch appeared into the market, and other collectors have high now.

I therefore was attacked, and someone tried to move the attention to Mr.Wind credibility / Orchi / personal reasons instead of focusing on the watch.

@993watch I never made any false accusations, I am not related to Orchi and I am sorry if he called you a moron on his IG.
 
janice&fred
Posts
4,593
Likes
10,810
Chris75 Chris75
I only shared some doubts on direct provenance and dial Mk

Chris75 Chris75
someone tried to move the attention to Mr.Wind credibility

tag you're it.
 
993watch
Posts
86
Likes
107
I personally would welcome Orchi to share his opinions on the watch subject of this thread with us directly. I honestly don't know if he is banned and or able to post on this forum in a clear and respectful way for collector learning and debate.

Related to the 1675 dial subject In the meantime, what does everyone think about the different dial variants on a matte 1675? I think it's established that a Mk3 is the rarest and most desired by most collectors. For me condition trumps Mk, but assuming condition is comparable...what comes next and how would you rank them? I would rank: Mk3, Mk1, Mk2, Mk4, Mk5.
 
43 More Posts...

Similar threads

Renton

SOLD? - 1675 previously owned by President of Mexico.

Renton Rolex Watches
Renton
Renton
Posts
18
Views
2K