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1675 previously owned by President of Mexico.

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Chris75
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In the last days a Rolex 1675 radial dial allegedly previously owned by President of Mexico Portillo made his appearance.

In the watch community some people are expressing doubt on the real provenance of the watch.

Orchi Palar is not new to attack dishonest dealers, but he is also known to be often too strict and extremist (to be euphemistic).

Any opinions( a part from how cool is a 1675 MK3)?

IMG_9407.jpg IMG_9406.jpg IMG_9408.jpg
 
993watch
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harrymai86 harrymai86
Now now it is gonna be fun to watch
I think it’s relatively hard to find a Mk3 version
and this one has an interesting story as well. I can’t speak to the value, but enjoyed the read and pics. What I don’t understand is the assertion made with an attacking tone that it’s the wrong dial compared to the terrible resolution of the pic shown for comparison. Even if the pic could be made out to compare, it’s looking at decades of time lapse and a current macro photo compared to a decades old technology printed photo.

This causes me to wonder...why would two established dealers fabricate a story of this magnitude with publicity and risk damage to their reputations? What’s this Orchi guy’s objective? It appears he wants to stir the pot to instigate and hasn’t provided adequate material proof to support his claim. If someone's going to challenge authenticity and responsible representation, they should at least have transparent rationale and strong proof to support the claim.
Edited:
 
WatchCor
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993watch 993watch
I think it’s relatively hard to find a Mk3 version
and this one has an interesting story as well. I can’t speak to the value, but enjoyed the read and pics. What I don’t understand is the assertion made with an attacking tone that it’s the wrong dial compared to the terrible resolution of the pic shown for comparison. Even if the pic could be made out to compare, it’s looking at decades of time lapse and a current macro photo compared to a decades old technology printed photo.

This causes me to wonder...why would two established dealers fabricate a story of this magnitude with publicity and risk damage to their reputations? What’s this Orchi guy’s objective? It appears he wants to stir the pot to instigate and hasn’t provided adequate material proof to support his claim. If someone's going to challenge authenticity and responsible representation, they should at least have transparent rationale and strong proof to support the claim.

Oh, boy. Yes, established dealers have alot to gain. Like in money. I am not claiming that these watch sales men are doing anything nefarious but sometimes truth gets mixed in with alot of ebelishments to increase interest and value.

If you read O's other post he states at least three details that are not coherent with the story:

Screenshot_20200310-080915__01.jpg


And a few other weird facts that might be true but still difficult to believe.

Screenshot_20200310-081027__01.jpg



I have no horses in this race and I genuinely want to believe the best out of people and dealers. But in my opinion extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof.

P.s. I agree O's posting style is very abrasive but there might be a grain truth in them. E.g. "dingleberry/blueberry" debacle.
 
ERBM
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JimInOz JimInOz
Some interesting reading.

https://steemit.com/orchipalar/@exorchist/who-is-orchi-palar-and-what-does-he-want

Definitely interesting reading, I can't speak to any of the "imperfections" or potential errors that this Orchi person has found with the watch or his background, but it is interesting to me that a watch with such a provenance, and its age is being sold by two dealers for $75k rather than a potentially famous auction house where it is likely to fetch a lot more money; however both these dealers must have something to back up there story as everyone who is likely to be interested in the watch is going to want some kind of proof of their assertions.
 
Traveler
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‘O’ is simultaneously one of the most annoying and entertaining (not to mention un-PC) people in the watchosphere. Just the fact he refers to himself in the third person ticks me off from the get-go. I appreciate his crusade against fraud, but find myself increasingly put off by his childish tone. I know, I don’t have to read it .... but there are nuggets of knowledge buried in there too. Sometimes.
 
watch3s
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i predict pablo escobar day date scenario probably at best. the world is probably more curious for Castro or Che's rolexes
 
ATWG
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harrymai86 harrymai86
What is the value of radial dial Mk3 1675 without provenance atm anyone?
Look at the FS section, there is one available at the moment.....
 
harrymai86
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ATWG ATWG
Look at the FS section, there is one available at the moment.....
Orchi said thay he can sell a normal radial dial withiut provenance at 75k usd easily anyday, guess that is not true
 
Dan S
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Nice watch, but that particular provenance doesn't excite me too much personally. I'm surprised people think that ownership by a relatively obscure former president of Mexico adds that much value.
 
ATWG
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harrymai86 harrymai86
Orchi said thay he can sell a normal radial dial withiut provenance at 75k usd easily anyday, guess that is not true
He exaggerates to make a point I guess. But no way an MK3 goes for that much.
 
993watch
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WatchCor WatchCor
Oh, boy. Yes, established dealers have alot to gain. Like in money. I am not claiming that these watch sales men are doing anything nefarious but sometimes truth gets mixed in with alot of ebelishments to increase interest and value.

If you read O's other post he states at least three details that are not coherent with the story:

Screenshot_20200310-080915__01.jpg


And a few other weird facts that might be true but still difficult to believe.

Screenshot_20200310-081027__01.jpg



I have no horses in this race and I genuinely want to believe the best out of people and dealers. But in my opinion extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof.

P.s. I agree O's posting style is very abrasive but there might be a grain truth in them. E.g. "dingleberry/blueberry" debacle.

Sure someone who's in the business of selling watches has something to gain. They also have something to lose if claims widely publicized can't be supported as well and that's quite a risk to take to one's reputation. I don't agree that you can tell if the dial in the pics is not a radial based on the resolution as ascertained. I do see tool marks on the movement and those could have been caused by an independent and not so careful watchmaker. Those marks to me aren't objective proof that the piece isn't what it's represented to be as described. I agree the insert looks to be in very good shape and do see some minor scuffs and a chip near the 11 o'clock marker, so it's not perfect. The sides of the case appear to have some wear marks consistent with endlink contact to my eyes. Could it only have been worn to travel and participate in important event occasions? If so, do we know how often he wore it outside of those occasions and if he wore a different watch during less public photo op moments? I doubt the owner used it as a "tool watch" anyway... As to the true value, that can be debated and guess we will see how quickly it sells. Despite the pedigree and historical significance of Paul Newman's Daytona, who would have thought it could justify a hammer price over $15M for example?

I appreciate a constructive debate and it makes for great entertainment, but this guy's style is abrasive and accusatory without objective proof. If he wants to put up more objective proof, then he should step up and provide detailed analysis of his claims. If the post earlier about him is true (and I'm not saying it is), then he sounds like someone with an ax to grind. His instagram is also private, so not sure what else he's posted and I have no interest in following a suspicious character like that anyway.
 
sxl2004
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Would love to get your opinions on the mismatches dial and hands lume.
 
993watch
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I agree they don't match. It seems tritium hands are a shade off from dial lume plots. Perhaps it's because they don't sit on the dial and light passes through and a dark dial affects the color? When they match close to 100%, I would get a bit suspicious of color matching if not disclosed by a seller. I don't know about this particular example, but suppose it's possible they were replaced as well in the past.
Edited:
 
ERBM
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993watch 993watch
I agree they don't match. It seems tritium hands are typically darker than dial lume plots. Perhaps it's because they don't sit on the dial and light passes through and a dark dial affects the color? When they match close to 100%, I would get a bit suspicious of color matching if not disclosed by a seller. I don't know about this particular example, but suppose it's possible they were replaced as well in the past.

Could be a service dial with the original hands, that would be my theory at least, as the hands look weathered but dial overall still looks clean albeit with a light patina.
 
WatchCor
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993watch 993watch
...The sides of the case appear to have some wear marks consistent with endlink contact to my eyes. Could it only have been worn to travel and participate in important event occasions? If so, do we know how often he wore it outside of those occasions and if he wore a different watch during less public photo op moments?...

I agree on most of your points. However:

DSC03704.jpg DSC03703.jpg DSC03709.jpg


These are the sides and the bracelet. I personally cannot see what you mean but that is besides the point. Bracelet and rest of case exhibit consistent and some might say medium wear and tear.

I am not saying that O is right or that the dealer is right. Just pointing out objective evidence that if the bracelet was original and only used on special occasions it would not show that amount of scuffs and scratches.

As I said, I believe that sometimes there is a grain of truth in O's, admittedly vulgar and childish rants.
 
993watch
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WatchCor WatchCor
I agree on most of your points. However:

DSC03704.jpg DSC03703.jpg DSC03709.jpg


These are the sides and the bracelet. I personally cannot see what you mean but that is besides the point. Bracelet and rest of case exhibit consistent and some might say medium wear and tear.

I am not saying that O is right or that the dealer is right. Just pointing out objective evidence that if the bracelet was original and only used on special occasions it would not show that amount of scuffs and scratches.

As I said, I believe that sometimes there is a grain of truth in O's, admittedly vulgar and childish rants.

Good point about the bracelet wear as evidence of use and perhaps it was worn regularly and not just for special occasions. The case certainly is well preserved with evidence of reasonable non-abused wear expected for the age. I would say the inside case appearance is what I would expect to see from a piece produced in mid to late '70's. The serial is consistent with a reference accepted as having a Mk3 dial variant as the correct match to the case. I state the comment about the case wear, based on how my own Mk2 case appears between the lugs with a well worn and original bracelet removed. I'm not a gmt expert, just sharing what I've learned and from my own experience of ownership.
 
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