Community Stories

1675 previously owned by President of Mexico.

Locked
georgetownhoya
Posts
107
Likes
265
Hi All, I am excited to offer this pretty incredible watch along with Cameron Barr of Craft & Tailored and think it would be useful to clear up a few things:

1. The watch came from a direct family member of President Lopez Portillo (a child of his who we are not being more specific about as to protect privacy) as seen, we did not swap/change dials, hands, bezels or bezel inserts, etc. The serial is also correct for a Mark 3. And I can assure you the family member would not have known what a Mark 3 or Mark 4 dial is, so that person also would not have swapped it.

2. The dial and hands match under UV light and in color and texture and I am confident were placed together originally. For that era, it is common for the hands to look lighter than the dial for all Rolex sport models with black dials. I think part of that is the lume on the dial was very thinly applied onto a black surface and the hands are not backed by anything, as a previous poster noted. In fact, you almost have to be suspicious if the hands match too perfectly to the dial. Unfortunately, many people in the past have relumed/repainted perfectly original hands to better match the dial.

3. Obviously, I examined the photos closely online and worked to discover photos of President Lopez Portillo wearing the watch, including in key meetings with world leaders. These were photos I discovered along with Cameron Barr and not offered to us by the family member. Given the pixelated nature of these, I don't believe it is possible to say it is a Mark 4 dial at all. To me, the plots still look like they are closer to the center of the dial. I would love to find a super-high resolution photograph of the watch to say conclusively that it is a Mark 3 radial, which I believe it is, but have not found one in many hours of searching. If any others can find such a photo that show a clear close-up of the dial and its details, I would gladly pay a reward.

I welcome conversation about all of these things, but strongly dislike the accusatory and conspiratorial tone so many people take. I have worked very hard to promote collecting vintage watches over many years. Vintage watches are my passion and my profession. I have a long-term attitude toward this field and want the field of collectors with true passion for these watches to grow, not to be killed by the negative and back-biting that so many people are taking. These internet trolls are basically running around and defecating on people's desks while they are working, showing no respect or openness to a conversation. This attitude is killing watch forums, which used to be much better, and killing Instagram. Instagram is an important marketing tool, but it is basically becoming a gutter and cesspool and I know it is generally the attitude of most collectors and dealers to not show watches on there unless they have to because of the endless comments by idiots and trolls dissing their watches for incorrect reasons.

I just want to end with the fact that I work hard to try to build up this hobby by sharing knowledge and offering excellent watches. If I can ever be helpful to any of you, please let me know. I am also happy to meet any of you in Palm Beach, Florida so we can look at some great watches together.

Eric Wind
windvintage.com
 
993watch
Posts
86
Likes
107
georgetownhoya georgetownhoya
Hi All, I am excited to offer this pretty incredible watch along with Cameron Barr of Craft & Tailored and think it would be useful to clear up a few things:

1. The watch came from a direct family member of President Lopez Portillo (a child of his who we are not being more specific about as to protect privacy) as seen, we did not swap/change dials, hands, bezels or bezel inserts, etc. The serial is also correct for a Mark 3. And I can assure you the family member would not have known what a Mark 3 or Mark 4 dial is, so that person also would not have swapped it.

2. The dial and hands match under UV light and in color and texture and I am confident were placed together originally. For that era, it is common for the hands to look lighter than the dial for all Rolex sport models with black dials. I think part of that is the lume on the dial was very thinly applied onto a black surface and the hands are not backed by anything, as a previous poster noted. In fact, you almost have to be suspicious if the hands match too perfectly to the dial. Unfortunately, many people in the past have relumed/repainted perfectly original hands to better match the dial.

3. Obviously, I examined the photos closely online and worked to discover photos of President Lopez Portillo wearing the watch, including in key meetings with world leaders. These were photos I discovered along with Cameron Barr and not offered to us by the family member. Given the pixelated nature of these, I don't believe it is possible to say it is a Mark 4 dial at all. To me, the plots still look like they are closer to the center of the dial. I would love to find a super-high resolution photograph of the watch to say conclusively that it is a Mark 3 radial, which I believe it is, but have not found one in many hours of searching. If any others can find such a photo that show a clear close-up of the dial and its details, I would gladly pay a reward.

I welcome conversation about all of these things, but strongly dislike the accusatory and conspiratorial tone so many people take. I have worked very hard to promote collecting vintage watches over many years. Vintage watches are my passion and my profession. I have a long-term attitude toward this field and want the field of collectors with true passion for these watches to grow, not to be killed by the negative and back-biting that so many people are taking. These internet trolls are basically running around and defecating on people's desks while they are working, showing no respect or openness to a conversation. This attitude is killing watch forums, which used to be much better, and killing Instagram. Instagram is an important marketing tool, but it is basically becoming a gutter and cesspool and I know it is generally the attitude of most collectors and dealers to not show watches on there unless they have to because of the endless comments by idiots and trolls dissing their watches for incorrect reasons.

I just want to end with the fact that I work hard to try to build up this hobby by sharing knowledge and offering excellent watches. If I can ever be helpful to any of you, please let me know. I am also happy to meet any of you in Palm Beach, Florida so we can look at some great watches together.

Eric Wind
windvintage.com

Nice to see some of the lingering concerns addressed directly by one of the sellers and an open door to sharing new information not presently available in the community. If someone has additional information to share, it will be interesting to get updated.

I personally respect open dialogue and sharing of opinions that are in the best interest of collectors like myself and may be divergent from my own views. I don't care for inflammatory tone and accusations without responsible proof to support a contrarian point of view. There are ways to do this respectfully and in an atmosphere that allows us to "agree to disagree" based on facts and personal experience at times. From what I have just witnessed about "Orichi" and his mode of operating, he appears to incite information sharing in a non-productive and divisive manner. I get that he may have some entertainment factor and I'm surprised from participating on this thread, to hear how many seem to have bought into some of his conspiracy theories without objective and irrefutable proof.
 
ATWG
Posts
2,212
Likes
6,890
You have to have thick skin to have an internet presence these days, let alone rely on it to making a living. Kudos to the seller to respond directly to members on this forum. I'm not going to speculate on the originality of the watch, we all have access to information and can make up our own minds. Long gone are the days where sharing information was the catalyst which made this hobby great.

Good luck with your sale.
 
Spacefruit
Posts
5,316
Likes
24,321
Eric is a well known, knowledgeable and established member of the vintage watch community. I have never seen him to be anything other than open and honest, and indeed helpful to anyone that asks.

Orchi has been banned on numerous fora, contributed some true assertions to the community, but also a lot of erroneous ones (He tried to spout off about 2915 bezels, something I know that he knew nothing about). All of his assertions are served in a hot bowl of vitriol and venom. His command of English is so bad that it is sometimes hard to work out which way his argument is going, or what he is saying. (And I spend my life working with people who don't speak English very well - I am good at interpreting non native English speakers.)

I heard Eric speak eloquently on the pros and cons of Auction selling by a private. Unless the item is spectacularly rare and you have two testosterone filled buyers, then selling at a big auction with its 25% fees will net the buyer less than a brokered sale. In addition the brokered sale will result in faster payment, and also removes the risk of a high profile no sale if the auction flops. A brokered sale controls the timing.

Dont get me wrong, I think the world needs Orchi's (Blue bezel exposure) but lets not forget what he is. Angry, quick to judge, misinformed, biased and a poor communicator.

There are those in this debate who seem to be giving Orchi's opinion and skills the same weight as Eric Wind et al.

That would be a mistake
 
craftandtailored
Posts
31
Likes
17
Just echoing Eric’s sentiments here about our watch. We were very excited to offer it for sale and it is, of course, disheartening to see a few people come out and make false accusations. Eric and I had the watch for a longggg time before we decided to bring the watch into the market for the public sale doing a tremendous amount of research and investigation beforehand. Our reputations as dealers are far more important than the relatively modest profit we hope to make from the sale of this piece.

When I hold this watch in my hand I think about all of the people it was around, all the meetings, and conversations and decisions it was a witness to. It's a tangible piece of history...

I have to agree with some of the statements about Orchi, and what the community calls “trolls.” I don't have anything against Orchi personally and I often find his posts entertaining, but it's hard to engage with someone who looks at everything as a conspiracy. In the past, I have tried to engage with Orchi and others to have a rational discussion about differences of opinion. Unfortunately, my experience has been that critics of this type refuse to look objectively at facts or research. They are just more interested in defending their position than engaging in a rational dialogue that would be constructive for the collector community. If a crystal clear picture comes up and you can see that the watch is an MK3 do you really think Orchi would admit that he was wrong? To my knowledge Orchi has never admitted to being wrong about anything. It’s really sad that someone with so much knowledge and passion focuses almost exclusively on the negative (except when it comes to his own pieces).

There were some comments made about "Why Eric and I didn't bring the watch into auction"? My response is “Why would we?”

Auction houses are great when an owner has no way to promote or sell something at market price, and the auction house takes hefty fees for their service. Auction houses can also “vouch” for authenticity (and we all know how many times they have been wrong). Frankly, the auction houses can’t provide any better authentication than Eric or and I can. In fact, the advisors within the auction houses watch department tend to be Jr. in the position and lack the experience and authority needed to properly authenticate watches. Eric and I also did all of the work here... Why would we pass that on to an auction house where we both have a direct path into the market? think this doesn't really need any further explanation.

I also welcome any further conversation and remain incredibly excited about the watch!!!

Cam-
craftandtailored.com
 
ConElPueblo
Posts
9,596
Likes
27,705
Chris75 Chris75
That's exactly my point: since the seller is already going to ask some crazy money for a stupid (in the best case scenario) provenance, he changes the dial to the rarest version (Mk3, which of course should be sold for 30% more than a Mk 4 at best, obviously not for 3 times its value).

...In that case the added value of the rarer dial execution would have to be more than it would be on a similar, non-celebrity owned watch. I am not sure that is necessarily the case. In fact, I would believe the opposite is true and it would be a case of diminishing returns.
 
993watch
Posts
86
Likes
107
That logic makes sense to me. The already exclusive Mk3 would stand on its own merit as part of a watch without an interesting story. If one were hoping to maximize value by swapping dials, that would seem to make more sense to do it on one without the “story”. I’m definitely not advocating that practice with dials and cases as a collector.
 
janice&fred
Posts
4,593
Likes
10,810
georgetownhoya georgetownhoya
welcome conversation about all of these things, but strongly dislike the accusatory and conspiratorial tone so many people take.

craftandtailored craftandtailored
I don't have anything against Orchi personally and I often find his posts entertaining, but it's hard to engage with someone who looks at everything as a conspiracy.

I wouldn't give all this much thought. Sure other trolls will jump on the band wagon when Orchi makes some of his delusional declarations of fraud. However anyone interested in the caliber of watches that high end dealers such as yourselves handle, and Orchi so loves to attack, are capable of considering the source. Orchi had been discussed not so long ago on this site and I shared how he likes to fancy himself as a "giant killer" by going after highly regarded watch experts/dealers. He tried hard years ago on VRF but will never reach the same level of respect, so resorts to vicious attacks to at least be a force to be reckoned with.
 
Traveler
Posts
2,070
Likes
14,603
Good to hear an open and clear response from the sellers (and glad we got Mr. Wind’s name back to Eric, and not his Scandinavian cousin ‘Erik’).... ‘O’ has definitely discredited himself (further) this time, and it confirms the growing sense of malaise I had when reading his recent rants, even if I did find some of them entertaining in a trailer-trash kind of way... good luck with the sale.
 
993watch
Posts
86
Likes
107
All quiet now on the contrarian prognosticator front. It sure felt like there was an agenda the way this thread was heading.
 
Chris75
Posts
203
Likes
107
993watch 993watch
All quiet now on the contrarian prognosticator front. It sure felt like there was an agenda the way this thread was heading.

I don't think there was an agenda: Orchi despite his "bad" English and his aggressive prose has been doing a good service to the watch community.

A part from the blueberry scandal (in which a lot of collectors were literally scammed paying 10-15K for aftermarket inserts, and that ended thanks to his help), he busted many other scammers on the internet.

He also pointed out dishonest sellers and made up watches at auctions house (from assembled Paul Newman to fake papers passing through fake Tiffany and Patrizzi).

He exposed big dealers and small scammers in the same way, always pursuing the true, and doing this for free.

That said I know Mr.Wind isn't a scammer, but I really think that discrediting Orchi isn't a good argument for the watch originality.

IMG_9553.jpg IMG_9554.jpg IMG_9555.PNG
 
Chris75
Posts
203
Likes
107
Pictures aren't clear of course, but it doesn't look like a Mk3 to me.

Of course I wouldn't buy it either, Mk3 or Mk4 dial, because the insane price is given from that stupid provenance and not from a specific dial-

But I think it's important, since the watch is sold as the one from President Portillo, if something doesn't match.

And I don't think that a Mk3, super rare and very sought after from collectors, isn't something that wouldn't add value (or simply desire) to a watch with provenance.

There is the same difference between selling a normal 6263 owned by Paul Newman and a 6263 "Newman dial" owned by Paul Newman (obviously provenance here isn't so appealing, that's why the MK3 dial may help).
 
993watch
Posts
86
Likes
107
Chris75, thanks for providing some additional pics as requested. My comment about agenda was based on how the thread started by introducing an element of suspicion and what I consider direct accusations of “franken” work posted elsewhere by Orchi. I also have had the opportunity to view other opinions of him and can’t say that I agree with you that his motives and actions are pure from what I’ve seen and heard from others. I don’t know for certain, as I have no direct experience with him. I’m also curious as to who these “little birds” are that he references. Do you happen to know their identity?

I do agree that there are bad actors in every walk of life and it’s good to protect a community by providing contrarian opinions. I don’t know I would go so far as to say blueberry owners were “scammed”, as there is no definitive proof I’m aware of, that some aren’t legit inserts (among many apparent fakes) supported by Rolex in some fashion and I don’t know how they were represented by every dealer who sold one to a buyer.

Regarding the pics, the first set is so pixelated or fuzzy, there’s no way I believe one can credibly tell what dial is on the watch. Once again, the tone from Mr. O is accusatory and while it could be entertaining, it’s also annoying. Regarding the second set below:
779AEF83-597E-41B6-8E49-5242BEE9513D.jpeg

1. Pic and lume plot relation is current, in color, higher resolution and taken from a direct perspective.

2. Fuzzy and decades old black and white pic is at an angle, so naturally lume plot relation would be different. Pic is fuzzy, so right away not a credible comparison.

3. Decades old color pic again is fuzzy, at an angle and lume plots are enlarged as such...so not really credible.

Based on the pics used to support the lume plot relation argument, it’s reminiscent of footage showing Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. I just can’t say I agree the dial in those older pics was different than represented on the for sale item.

I already addressed the Mk3 vs Mk4 dial argument earlier and still don’t believe an astute businessperson would swap dials to maximize value, even if they had ulterior motives. One can argue the subjectivity of the provenance merit and therefore not really worth the time. The market will ultimately decide the value.

Regarding Paul Newman’s “PN 6263”, that was the watch he wore and if it were a big red dial instead, would still have had incremental value over a regular big red. Again, the market determines the value of provenance and place in history.

These are my opinions on the topics mentioned, the sellers have added their feedback on the thread subject and we’ll see how this interesting reference lands.
 
ConElPueblo
Posts
9,596
Likes
27,705
993watch 993watch
Regarding the pics, the first set is so pixelated or fuzzy, there’s no way I believe one can credibly tell what dial is on the watch. Once again, the tone from Mr. O is accusatory and while it could be entertaining, it’s also annoying. Regarding the second set below:
779AEF83-597E-41B6-8E49-5242BEE9513D.jpeg

1. Pic and lume plot relation is current, in color, higher resolution and taken from a direct perspective.

2. Fuzzy and decades old black and white pic is at an angle, so naturally lume plot relation would be different. Pic is fuzzy, so right away not a credible comparison.

3. Decades old color pic again is fuzzy, at an angle and lume plots are enlarged as such...so not really credible.

Agree.

I am pretty clueless re. Rolex, but if I was using similar "evidence" to support a similar claim on, say, a vintage Omega, I'd be laughed off Omegaforums.

Question: If this was anyone else than a serial fake debunker who posted the comparisons, would anyone take them seriously?
 
Chris75
Posts
203
Likes
107
As far as I was tell Orchi has some specific information ( a part from pics) on this watch that for some reason he hasn't fully disclosed, probably to protect his source ( I know it sounds like a conspiracy theorist).

I am pretty confident that Orchi will relase everything pretty soon...

That said the watch in the pictures doesn't look like a Mk3.

And yes Orchi is a fake debunker, and that's why such a character assassination on him.

Don't forget he exposed auction house and big dealers.
 
georgetownhoya
Posts
107
Likes
265
Here are two more photos, for the one where he is speaking the plots seem to be directly in line and centered with the date window more like a Mark 3 rather than to the right edge of the date window, which would be a Mark 4 dial. The other seems to show the plots low in relation to the 12:00 triangle. For me, this is all Bigfoot type talk, but my opinion is that these photos show a Mark 3 radial dial. Chris75 seems to have something against me, I am not sure what it is, but welcome the opportunity to speak to him on the phone at anytime. I sent him a direct message offering to speak with him whenever he would like.
 
Lopez Portillo Speaking GMT.jpg Lopez Portillo GMT 1675.jpg
georgetownhoya
Posts
107
Likes
265
w154 w154
Just sent you a PM Eric
Thank you for sharing this video. At 4:13 we see a brief shot of the watch. To me, the plots look on the small side and for the 2:00 plot, it looks like there is a long space between the bezel and the plot. But next thing you know we will be finding a shooter in the grassy knoll of old photos of JFK in Dallas.

 
Screen Shot 2020-03-12 at 4.15.15 PM.png
993watch
Posts
86
Likes
107
Chris75, now I have to outright ask... are you one of Orchi's "little birds"? You started this thread slanted in a direction using his "lume plot gate" pixelated IG post for comment, where he's proclaiming (SHOUTING)... the watch isn't what it claims to be as represented by the sellers. Doesn't he also sell watches? If so, wouldn't he inherently have a conflict of interest and why would he attack other watch dealers like a petulant child?
 
123 More Posts...

Similar threads

Renton

SOLD? - 1675 previously owned by President of Mexico.

Renton Rolex Watches
Renton
Renton
Posts
18
Views
2K