13ZN Chronographs Inquiries and Information.

minutenrohr · Apr 23, 2019

...so nobody can detect the color of the dial feet!

Mark020 · Apr 23, 2019

Still an interesting project but not for USD 10k. Also interesting it will not show up when looked for in .com and .co.uk

minutenrohr · Apr 23, 2019

Maybe we will find that project later in this thread. Material for an interesting discussion about the dial.

Syrte · Apr 23, 2019

Radiumpassion
Wasn't this also "authenticated" by Longines? Starting too see a pattern here😎

minutenrohr
Yes - surely it was. As well as this one:

To be clear : Longines' Certificates of Authenticity do not guarantee that dials are un-refinished.
I was disappointed to find out, considering they now charge 120 CHF for the service which used to be free.

But the certificates on their face do not say the dials are unrestored, and when I inquired about that Jennifer's reply was:

"le certificat atteste l'authenticité (à savoir s'il s'agit de pièces Longines ou non) des différents composants de la montre (boîte, glace, bracelet, cadran, mouvement) sans entrer dans leur degré de restauration. De plus il compare la physionomie de la montre à la date T par rapport aux informations contenues dans les archives au moment de sa production. Les informations qui figurent dans le certificat, ou qui ne figurent pas, ont été mûrement réfléchies".

My translation: "the certificate testifies to the authenticity (ie whether they are Longines parts or not) of the various components of the watch (case, crystal, strap, dial, movement) without getting into their level of restoration. Furthermore, it compares the make-up of the watch on the day it is examined, with the information contained in the archive at the time of its production. What information figures in the certificate, vs which doesn't, was thought out carefully".

I have to infer that with that, Longines deliberately chose to keep out of potential disagreements (and/ or litigation) over dial originality or modifications. I also have to notice the hands do not appear in the list of components being certified. Will update if I have any further info on that.
Best regards

minutenrohr · Apr 23, 2019

Yes but: I´ve been in St. Imier and showed my 1st fake dialed 13ZN12. They told me, the dial is original. Maybe because they are nice guys who like to give informations which are gladly listened by a collector. So I omitted to show them my 2nd fake dialed 13ZN12. Perhaps they have improved their behavior/carefulness during the last years? I really don´t know.
I thought, an "Extract from the Archives" is free, but a "Certificate of Authenticity" had always cost some money. Is that wrong?

Radiumpassion · Apr 23, 2019

minutenrohr
Maybe we will find that project later in this thread. Material for an interesting discussion about the dial.

Looks like dial feet has been cut, and dial is glued to the case😲

Maybe it was at some point modifyed for another movement?

Syrte · Apr 23, 2019

The Certificate of Authenticity was free too until a few months ago.
By the time I asked for one in August 2018 it had just recently become a service for which they charge.

gemstar · Apr 23, 2019

Radiumpassion
Looks like dial feet has been cut, and dial is glued to the case😲

Maybe it was at some point modifyed for another movement?

"It was since replaced with a quartz movement.
I removed that new quartz movement as it was garbage and not working even with a new battery and wasn't a chronograph itself. "

You're right as that's what the seller mentioned.

Radiumpassion · Apr 23, 2019

gemstar
"It was since replaced with a quartz movement.
I removed that new quartz movement as it was garbage and not working even with a new battery and wasn't a chronograph itself. "

You're right as that's what the seller mentioned.

Thank you, I did not read the text🤦

gemstar · Apr 23, 2019

Auction ended.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/Vintage-Lon...m43663.l10137&nordt=true&rt=nc&orig_cvip=true

Mark020 · Apr 24, 2019

Back in working order in 3 months I guess 😀

TinyClown · May 2, 2019

Meanwhile where the big boys are at

DirtyDozen12 · May 4, 2019

Seiji
Same surface

View attachment 757282

Tough to tell without seeing both dials in the same lighting. The surface aging (i.e. spots) suggest that the surface is not the same.

TinyClown · May 5, 2019

Watch on the left that you bought from Madeleine Van Dorn is a redial. You were told that as soon as you posted the first photos of it four years ago. Has anything changed since then?

Lépine · May 5, 2019

TinyClown
Watch on the left that you bought from Madeleine Van Dorn is a redial. You were told that as soon as you posted the first photos of it four years ago. Has anything changed since then?

Better photographs, other watches to compare to, visit to St. Imier, meeting John Goldberger, meeting Bernard Portal, conversation with Adriano Divadoni, meeting and showing watch to other world class collectors, purchase of other 13zn similar dial parts.

Tell us about your qualifications. Written a book lately? Are you responsible for authentication of Longines? Buy and sell a $5.9 million watch? Until you qualify yourself, you have no credibility. If you're going to St. Imier this week, I will enjoy showing you the watch. Are you one of the "Sixteen"?

minutenrohr · May 5, 2019

So I repost my comparison of an original Longines radium dial and Seiji´s; it seems clear to me that this kind of radium application is not like it was usual during the thirties and the fourties (or later) - no matter if you are watching a Longines, an Omega or any other radium dial. And that´s only one point I´d like to mention regarding that dial and it´s authenticity.
I´m collecting Longines watches for a longer time and I´m definitely of the same opinion as DirtyDozen12 and TinyClown.

minutenrohr · May 5, 2019

minutenrohr · May 5, 2019

So look on the last four pics I just posted...

TinyClown · May 5, 2019

Seiji
Better photographs, other watches to compare to, visit to St. Imier, meeting John Goldberger, meeting Bernard Portal, conversation with Adriano Divadoni, meeting and showing watch to other world class collectors, purchase of other 13zn similar dial parts.

Tell us about your qualifications. Written a book lately? Are you responsible for authentication of Longines? Buy and sell a $5.9 million watch? Until you qualify yourself, you have no credibility. If you're going to St. Imier this week, I will enjoy showing you the watch. Are you one of the "Sixteen"?

The inverted numbers (15 and 20) on the right subdial are incorrect. Longines didn’t issue 13ZNs with inverted numbers. Case closed

PS: I just looked at every single watch in the 13ZN and 30CH sections of Goldberger’s new book. NONE of them have an inverted 15 or 20

DirtyDozen12 · May 5, 2019

Seiji
Written a book lately?

Seiji
Buy and sell a $5.9 million watch?

It is precisely this type of "logic" that has led, and will continue to lead, so many astray.