105.002 potential pre-purchase advice

Spacefruit · Apr 9, 2020

timoss
Speedmaster 101 disagrees with you: https://speedmaster101.com/105-002/

Not that I know anything about it myself...

i don’t disagree.

I say my experience is not extensive enough to make the kind of certain call that @genini4 does. The alpha / baton serial relationship theory sounds sensible, it’s just I have not got confirmed data to make that pronouncement.

Spacefruit · Apr 9, 2020

Let me go further.

there is evidence to suggest that watches were built using movements that were not in number sequence. So assuming an early number is an early watch is based on a flawed assumption, refuted by Omega's own records.

there are very few 105.002’s surviving to current day, even less on the market, and almost none with provable provenance so that we can look at a watch, take the serial and hands as a data point.

it make sense that low serial and alphas go together. However “making sense” is not evidence.

MWO authors have spent time with access to archive material, I will always bow to their superior work and access to information.

I have always acted on observation, and in the case of 105.002’s I have not observed enough watches to make a hard and fast rule.

what I can say is that if a watch has original looking alphas, and a low serial, all things being equal and otherwise correct, I will pay more for it (alphas) than for a late serial with batons.

if I see a late serial with alphas and it looks like they are original , I will not dismiss it out of hand for being non original.

there may be a lurking suspicion in the back of my mind, but if it looks and feels right, then beggars can’t be choosers with these very rare watches.

The OP watch is poor. So it has to be cheap. I can have a lot of fun with a cheap speedmaster.

the question is, is it cheap enough?

(No)

tantovincoio · Apr 9, 2020

tantovincoio
I agree about dial and hands lume

I state that spheres and dial are relumed for me.
As for transitional references produced for a short time such as 105002 I would not be so categorical.
Having said that, I believe that the Alpha hands are a continuity with the CKs that characterize this reference. If I had to take one, I would certainly like it with the Alpha hands, but these are personal tastes.

MaiLollo · Apr 9, 2020

Dial markers are uneven, thus relumed I would say, and the color is not a color often seen on these refs...
However, when dial / hands color matches, it could just be that the hands only were relumed.

ChrisN · Apr 9, 2020

Passover
BTW, what is that???

I think that is just a very sharp shadow being cast by the light at the upper area and it makes it look as if there is something on top of the screw.

In addition to what @Passover has said, the spring that controls the operating lever and coupling yoke appears to be broken and sitting in the movement. This is how the spring should look and without this, the chronograph won't work.

timoss
Oh and owner says chrono function not working but the rest is running fine... so, cost of a service will have to be added...

In general, the movement looks tired and with some corrosion so I'd allow a lot more than a typical service when parts are included - say two times. You often find that where there is some corrosion on the rear of the movement, the parts under the dial have suffered even worse especially the keyless works that are directly connected to the crown.

Good luck, Chris

timoss · Apr 9, 2020

Thanks all-- appreciate all the input. FWIW, the seller has not been misleading about any of the details. It is what it is and he admits as much. Just FYI in case anyone should come across it in their travels....

For my own education, I would love to hear more about how how people go about judging original lume vs. relume. For instance, does this look like a relume? if so, why?

Seaborg · Apr 9, 2020

timoss
Thanks all-- appreciate all the input. FWIW, the seller has not been misleading about any of the details. It is what it is and he admits as much. Just FYI in case anyone should come across it in their travels....

For my own education, I would love to hear more about how how people go about judging original lume vs. relume. For instance, does this look like a relume? if so, why?

This one looks not relumed to me. Hard to tell why actually. Guts feeling 🤔.

Maybe relumed dials/hands look too perfect in terms of color homogeneity and texture. When I see some tiny discolorations, this could make me think of original lume. Furthermore, sometimes, the dial itself is damaged dur to old lume scratching by matchmakers. You can see marks around the plots resulting from the removal.
Finally, the lume texture itself is very perculiar as well. On old lume, it's a bit sandy (NB: not the case for 90's tritium dials).

Dan S · Apr 9, 2020

I guess I might be a little suspicious of the lume on that last example. The color matches so well and it's such a desirable color. Also, the lume on the dial doesn't seem to show any indication of the underlying step.

harrymai86 · Apr 9, 2020

timoss
Thanks all-- appreciate all the input. FWIW, the seller has not been misleading about any of the details. It is what it is and he admits as much. Just FYI in case anyone should come across it in their travels....

For my own education, I would love to hear more about how how people go about judging original lume vs. relume. For instance, does this look like a relume? if so, why?

The lume texture on the hands look quite strange to me, also a gut feeling.

timoss · Apr 9, 2020

Could it be the lume on the hands was re-done to match the face...? There is a bit of "dirtiness" in the 11 oclock marker, perhaps making a case for originality....

Dan S · Apr 9, 2020

timoss
Could it be the lume on the hands was re-done to match the face...? There is a bit of "dirtiness" in the 11 oclock marker, perhaps making a case for originality....

Yes that is possible of course, which is why UV photos can be helpful. And to be fair, now that I've looked more closely, I can see evidence of the step through the lume on several of the markers.

Passover · Apr 9, 2020

Hands seem repainted

I don't know that:

Is it possible to just repaint the hands without affecting the lume?

MaiLollo · Apr 9, 2020

timoss
Thanks all-- appreciate all the input. FWIW, the seller has not been misleading about any of the details. It is what it is and he admits as much. Just FYI in case anyone should come across it in their travels....

For my own education, I would love to hear more about how how people go about judging original lume vs. relume. For instance, does this look like a relume? if so, why?

This one, to me, looks relumed. I have rarely seen a similar shade of orange / dark yellow on e tritium speedmaster, most one owner watches I've seen looked lighter in colour. Also, texture of the hands and the dial look similar, which was never the case, so I'd think they were both relumed by the same person. But pics are not high res, so its just my opinion..

mozambique · Apr 9, 2020

Regarding the pic above: in my opinion, assuming the bezel is original to the watch, then its a bit beaten up, whereas the dial lume looks immaculate. Looks incongruous therefore screams relume to me. Hand lume is perfect colour match which is rarely the case. All in all, dial lume and hand lume look too clean.

Archer · Apr 9, 2020

Passover
BTW, what is that???

Looks like the missing screw from the enlargement ring...maybe...

LeonDeBayonne · Apr 10, 2020

My advice: with regards to cosmetics, buy the book Moonwatchonly and make your own opinion. If you start asking questions about lume on forums, unless it is poorly made, you’ll get all sorts of BS answers. Some watchmakers are able to relume dials in really perfect manners, so half of forum members will tell you it’s relumed and the other will say it’s not. The fact is they probably don’t have a clue or at best don’t know for sure, that’s all. For all other cosmetic questions about the dial, hands and bezels, the book is perfect. But besides all, trust your own judgement and stop scratching your head for a stupid dot above or close to 90. This is irrelevant. The only advice you should seek here is on the movement/caliber because it is far more important and because it requires a knowledge that is much more difficult to earn. Good day.

killer67 · Apr 10, 2020

Dan S
I guess I might be a little suspicious of the lume on that last example. The color matches so well and it's such a desirable color. Also, the lume on the dial doesn't seem to show any indication of the underlying step.

that reference is known for a certain lume application, texture and this one also has a certain desirable Rolexish color that might bring you more money but not very common to original pieces. Hands are a dead match which is uncommon. Like @harrymai86 said go with your gut

apollo XI · Apr 10, 2020

I think the balance too is wrong. It seems a new replacement.

Giuseppe.

105.002 potential pre-purchase advice

Spacefruit

Spacefruit

tantovincoio

MaiLollo

ChrisN

timoss

Seaborg

Dan S

harrymai86

timoss

Dan S

Passover

MaiLollo

mozambique

Archer

LeonDeBayonne

killer67

apollo XI

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