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WW2 RAF watch identification help please

Omegafanman
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It's definitely not the Omega 2292 case, the lugs are too heavy, to my eye. I think it might be this case, different dial obviously.
https://www.historicflyingclothing....ry-pilot-s-wristwatch/prod_17124#.YTXZrC1Q3aY

Your stopwatch is a SmithS VC.2530 1/5th sec, circa 1942/3 issued to artillery, I think. Nice stop watch, also in a Dennison Cuprel case.

Thanks for the info. I agree aside from the crown and font the case looks a good match (pic below). I thought the Tissot with crown also looked a good match. Hopefully someone will chime in on the tank watch.
.
 
897B0154-7E68-495C-B1F6-54BDC8972A69.jpeg
watchyouwant
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The Longines with cursive numerals will not be an MoD redial. Never forget, that most of these were auctioned off from the MoD . Bought by dealers , who refurbished them for further sales and private buyers. That's how the later sales of the IWC Mk 11 " created " the Myth of the Navy issued white dial IWC Mk 11. All different; no amag dials, non IWC font . A UK dealer bought a lot of them at auction. Used and new, but correctly engraved , in small timber compartment boxes . 10 per box. Plus a big lot of spare parts and cases and movements, hands also. But only a few spare dials. So, the dealer had new dials made and had a batch made in white to counter the boring black dials. That Myth did hang around for many years and the white dialed MK 11 fetched quite a premium. I still have a black redial from that batch. Same dodgy font. And the same happened to dial damaged Omega and Longines mil watches. So, that explains many dodgy dialed mil. Watches. Happened after decommissioning.... Kind regards. Achim
 
Omegafanman
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The Longines with cursive numerals will not be an MoD redial. Never forget, that most of these were auctioned off from the MoD . Bought by dealers , who refurbished them for further sales and private buyers. That's how the later sales of the IWC Mk 11 " created " the Myth of the Navy issued white dial IWC Mk 11. All different; no amag dials, non IWC font . A UK dealer bought a lot of them at auction. Used and new, but correctly engraved , in small timber compartment boxes . 10 per box. Plus a big lot of spare parts and cases and movements, hands also. But only a few spare dials. So, the dealer had new dials made and had a batch made in white to counter the boring black dials. That Myth did hang around for many years and the white dialed MK 11 fetched quite a premium. I still have a black redial from that batch. Same dodgy font. And the same happened to dial damaged Omega and Longines mil watches. So, that explains many dodgy dialed mil. Watches. Happened after decommissioning.... Kind regards. Achim

Thanks for the info. Does this post make a difference in terms of the white dials?
https://omegaforums.net/threads/sixties-uk-raf-v-bomber-watches-id.133987/#post-1819010
 
watchyouwant
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The best place to find these boxed IWC Mk11 was the Bermondsey market in London. Trading started at 5 am and with a good torch you had to be there early. The history is, that you could buy even stolen goods without consequences until the Sun was up..... I remember not exactly, but a box with 10 x IWC Mk 11 was around pounds 800. Over the period of 4 months a bought 30 X IWC issued, but never used, there. And sold all with a very good profit at other European watch fairs.
 
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The writing on the pilots hands could be flying direction instructions, maybe. Incidentally, the lugs on his watch are quite distinctive and look a bit like a Reconvilier ATP's lugs, which would be interesting as it is an army issued watch, but who knows.

AFAIK the MOD didn't issue any Tissot wristwatches.

The pocket watch is in KK's book, pp. 462, noted as a GSTP, "unknown swiss maker, maybe Revue movement".
 
size11s
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The best place to find these boxed IWC Mk11 was the Bermondsey market in London. Trading started at 5 am and with a good torch you had to be there early. The history is, that you could buy even stolen goods without consequences until the Sun was up..... I remember not exactly, but a box with 10 x IWC Mk 11 was around pounds 800. Over the period of 4 months a bought 30 X IWC issued, but never used, there. And sold all with a very good profit at other European watch fairs.

I used to go to early morning Bermondsey market as a student in the 1980's, looking for early damaged prints to work on as projects at college. Wish I had both the interest and cash to look for watches then!! Different days indeed.
 
w154
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The Longines with cursive numerals will not be an MoD redial. Never forget, that most of these were auctioned off from the MoD . Bought by dealers , who refurbished them for further sales and private buyers. That's how the later sales of the IWC Mk 11 " created " the Myth of the Navy issued white dial IWC Mk 11. All different; no amag dials, non IWC font . A UK dealer bought a lot of them at auction. Used and new, but correctly engraved , in small timber compartment boxes . 10 per box. Plus a big lot of spare parts and cases and movements, hands also. But only a few spare dials. So, the dealer had new dials made and had a batch made in white to counter the boring black dials. That Myth did hang around for many years and the white dialed MK 11 fetched quite a premium. I still have a black redial from that batch. Same dodgy font. And the same happened to dial damaged Omega and Longines mil watches. So, that explains many dodgy dialed mil. Watches. Happened after decommissioning.... Kind regards. Achim

Is it an opinion or a fact that the cursive script wasn’t done whilst the watches were still within the MOD ? Not a loaded question, but I never saw evidence either way. I did think this was interesting though, the screenshot from an MOD broadcast from the sixties showing this.

FB4F2011-2223-41DE-9CE9-C2CA26BBE9A7.jpeg


I’d have thought it quite a good indication that the big hourglass dials we’re done by the MOD or one of their suppliers, and I think many would have doubted this variation to be done by the MOD.
 
watchyouwant
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Is it an opinion or a fact that the cursive script wasn’t done whilst the watches were still within the MOD ? Not a loaded question, but I never saw evidence either way. I did think this was interesting though, the screenshot from an MOD broadcast from the sixties showing this.

FB4F2011-2223-41DE-9CE9-C2CA26BBE9A7.jpeg


I’d have thought it quite a good indication that the big hourglass dials we’re done by the MOD or one of their suppliers, and I think many would have doubted this variation to be done by the MOD.

Hard to say, because it is not known, when the MoD started the auctions to the public. For me it is more like an educated guess. Watch 3 with the cursive numerals shows a rather complicated and original Longines signature. Would not be done during the war. After the war, the first Longines with the hour glass printed on the dials by the factory are after 1952. Checked the Goldberger book for that. The re case versions came 1956 with the WW2 dials and reprints in black. Still no cursive numerals. But be done whilst still in the posession of the RAF ? Quite possible till the 60's. Have to check more literature, but not enough time in the moment. Achim
 
tapaptpat
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Those of you who have KK, I for one cannot recall seeing a rectangular cased "issued" timepiece.
(I'm not counting desk/wall clocks or dashboard mounted pieces.)
::stirthepot::
KK Its not the best travel companion from a portability point of view.
📖
 
cchen
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w154 w154
Is it an opinion or a fact that the cursive script wasn’t done whilst the watches were still within the MOD ?

For me opinion, but I think most Longines collectors would agree that the cursive script would not have been used during the period these watches were issued and used. The script logo was last used in the 1920's. And also, as these were real tools used for military activity, a fancier Breguet-style font would not have been used. Can only be a later redial.

IIRC, MoD redials used sans-serif font and sometimes the logo in quotations. Having done a bit research on this ref when I was searching for one, I also don't recall seeing MoD redials any with the winged hourglass logo which was introduced in the 50's. But given the video screenshot it seems it's possible that's a MoD variant as well.
Edited:
 
Omegafanman
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It's definitely not the Omega 2292 case, the lugs are too heavy, to my eye. I think it might be this case, different dial obviously.
https://www.historicflyingclothing....ry-pilot-s-wristwatch/prod_17124#.YTXZrC1Q3aY

Your stopwatch is a SmithS VC.2530 1/5th sec, circa 1942/3 issued to artillery, I think. Nice stop watch, also in a Dennison Cuprel case.

I took the stopwatch to a watchmaker and got the case opened (cover + dust cover). Glad I did not try it as he needed a press to put the outer cover back on. It is an Air Ministry issue.
.
Edited:
 
Pocket 01 - Copy.jpg Case back 01 - Copy.jpg Case Back 02 - Copy.jpg Case back 03 - Copy.jpg
Omegafanman
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I thought this was a cracking photo of Air Vice Marshal Forster Dickson in his personal Spitfire. I beleive he made one of the first carrier landings / proved the concept in WW1 so came up the ranks. Great couple of shots of his watch (or watches?) - not sure if it can get an ID from the photos?
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Watch 01.jpg Watch 02.jpg Watch 03.jpg
size11s
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Thanks Omegafanman, I stand corrected, that is the other issue possibility for the SmithS movement aside form the VC2530. Nice early all English made stopwatch.
 
Omegafanman
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Hard to say, because it is not known, when the MoD started the auctions to the public. For me it is more like an educated guess. Watch 3 with the cursive numerals shows a rather complicated and original Longines signature. Would not be done during the war. After the war, the first Longines with the hour glass printed on the dials by the factory are after 1952. Checked the Goldberger book for that. The re case versions came 1956 with the WW2 dials and reprints in black. Still no cursive numerals. But be done whilst still in the posession of the RAF ? Quite possible till the 60's. Have to check more literature, but not enough time in the moment. Achim

So I went back to the Museum and they were very helpful and did give me as much access to these watches as possible - so starting with number 3....

I am not sure what the 9380 reference is - it is still listed as a 43 6B/159?

Lastly - I am not normally one for prices but this is a museum and the last few months have been tough / they are chasing funds to keep the planes and airfield in a good state for the public + make the Lancaster flight ready. I wonder at a push what this watch would be worth in the open market?
.
 
01 - Copys.jpg 02 - Copys.jpg
Omegafanman
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@Omegafanman
Watch number 4
What is the GSTP engraving on the back?
Possibly a 15 jewel movement from fabrique d'Ebauche de Fleurier FEF 40H
https://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?49038-GSTP-info-req-d-please
Thanks @size11s for help with KK refs, I'm away from my ref materials

I mentioned I went back and they were super accomodating - here are front and back shots of the pocket watch. It is displayed as a WW2 RAF Navigators pocket watch. Lastly - I am not normally one for prices but this is a museum and the last few months have been tough / they are chasing funds to keep the planes and airfield in a good state for the public + make the Lancaster flight ready. I wonder at a push what this watch would be worth in the open market?
.
 
01 - Copy.jpg 02 Back - Copy.jpg
Omegafanman
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It's definitely not the Omega 2292 case, the lugs are too heavy, to my eye. I think it might be this case, different dial obviously.
https://www.historicflyingclothing....ry-pilot-s-wristwatch/prod_17124#.YTXZrC1Q3aY

Your stopwatch is a SmithS VC.2530 1/5th sec, circa 1942/3 issued to artillery, I think. Nice stop watch, also in a Dennison Cuprel case.

I was able to get some extra pictures for watch 02 - but it is in a sealed display case so the backside it out of reach. I suspect this one will remain a mystery - maybe it could be Tissot as suggetsed by @ConElPueblo ?
.
 
01 - Copy.jpg 02 - Copy.jpg 03 - Copy.jpg
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