What is this Omega Seamaster 60 actually worth in this condition?

Archer · Sep 25, 2019

w154
So yes the cost is the cost, but the cost varies from watchmaker to watchmaker, and probably more so from region to region. I’ve had huge remedial work done on a nightmare flooded chronograph movement and paid around $500. Never paid more for anything.

Well, I have no idea what movement parts were needed in the example you have given here, but just consider that if the watch in question here required a new balance complete (which is possible given the rust I'm seeing) that part alone is more than the $500 you had your chronograph repaired for.

I fully understand that watchmakers charge different rates, but for someone to come in and proclaim that an estimate is "ridiculous" when they have no clue whatsoever what parts would be needed, and what those parts might cost, is not on. By all means suggest they get a donor movement to use for parts to lower potential costs - that's a completely viable alternative and an approach I take when servicing watches myself when I can find a good donor. The problem is that often donor watches are no better than what you are working on, and many of the same parts can be bad.

w154
I’m not sure it would really be a Franken, at least in my eyes it wouldn’t be. It would be a genuine Omega with a replacement Omega movement. If you flood a modern watch and send it back to Omega and they replace the whole movement does it become a Franken ? And whilst many collectors here value originality (me included), I wouldn’t want to presume that the OP would value maximizing the originality over the cost. That’s a choice for them, and the only obligation to the collecting community is disclosure if they later decide to sell.

There's certainly situations when a company that is servicing one of their own watches decides to replace an entire movement. In Omega's case they will either transfer the serial number of the original movement the new one, or will update the records to reflect the new movement number for a specific watch. In the past they have used special serial numbers on watches like Speedmasters, that start with a "R" as we've seen on the forums. I have personally had occasions where I had to replace bridges that were worn or damaged, where the serial number is on the bridge - the old bridge is sent back, the new one is engraved with the same number, and the new bridge sent to me for use in the watch.

Here's an example - worn bridge:

Serial number on original bridge:

Sent the old one off, and several weeks later the new one arrives:

Engraved with the same serial number:

A company replacing an movement in this way is not creating a franken. What you have proposed is essentially saying that as long as it's the correct type of movement, it doesn't matter where the movement comes from. Sorry but I don't think too many people here would be pleased to say buy a vintage Speedmaster with a Cal. 321 inside, only to find out it's a movement from a Seamaster. Swapping the movement out like this is certainly creating a franken.

Dan S · Sep 25, 2019

Tree fiddy.

w154 · Sep 25, 2019

Archer
Well, I have no idea what movement parts were needed in the example you have given here, but just consider that if the watch in question here required a new balance complete (which is possible given the rust I'm seeing) that part alone is more than the $500 you had your chronograph repaired for.

Which surely is a crazy solution to the problem at hand. I don’t think may people would stump up $500 just for the complete balance when you can certainly get a functional and freshly serviced complete movement for that. Or just a balance that might be OK for $35.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OMEGA-Clai...043795?hash=item4d98067cd3:g:fnEAAOSwPdhdJgnr

Perhaps it’s different if it’s a sentimental piece and the owner is desperate to change as little as possible, but that’s not the case for the OP.

Archer
I fully understand that watchmakers charge different rates, but for someone to come in and proclaim that an estimate is "ridiculous" when they have no clue whatsoever what parts would be needed, and what those parts might cost, is not on. By all means suggest they get a donor movement to use for parts to lower potential costs - that's a completely viable alternative and an approach I take when servicing watches myself when I can find a good donor. The problem is that often donor watches are no better than what you are working on, and many of the same parts can be bad.

I didn’t really mean that the watchmakers quote was ridiculous, more that using a huge amount of NOS parts is a ridiculous solution to the problem at hand. Maybe I worded it badly. That’s why I suggested using a donor movement.

And then a question. If you had a donor 563 and this watch, how would you decide which part to use from each pair of parts that you have ? Would you prioritize using the part from the original movement even if it was in poorer condition than the donor ? I personally don’t see the logic in doing that.

Archer
What you have proposed is essentially saying that as long as it's the correct type of movement, it doesn't matter where the movement comes from.

Well some customers probably couldn’t care less whether the movement started its life in the same reference. I don’t see why those type of customers should pay more just to satisfy the “originality is everything” mantra of the collecting community.

Archer
Sorry but I don't think too many people here would be pleased to say buy a vintage Speedmaster with a Cal. 321 inside, only to find out it's a movement from a Seamaster. Swapping the movement out like this is certainly creating a franken.

Which is exactly why I said that there should be disclosure if it’s sold on.

Archer · Sep 25, 2019

w154
Which surely is a crazy solution to the problem at hand. I don’t think may people would stump up $500 just for the complete balance when you can certainly get a functional and freshly serviced complete movement for that. Or just a balance that might be OK for $35.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OMEGA-Clai...043795?hash=item4d98067cd3:g:fnEAAOSwPdhdJgnr

Perhaps it’s different if it’s a sentimental piece and the owner is desperate to change as little as possible, but that’s not the case for the OP.

As I noted there are ways of reducing costs that can be used, such as a donor movement or buying a balance loose like the one you linked to. But how would you know that the balance you are buying used that came out of another movement isn't damaged? Sure maybe for $35 it's worth the gamble, but you can't compare the price of used parts in unknown condition to new parts from Omega that you know will be right.

But again the point is, you make claims that the estimate was ridiculous, without knowing the details of the situation. That is the point I'm taking issue with. If you disagree that's fine, but people here are very quick to judge that some repair estimate is too high (most common) too low, or just right not having any clue what scope of work is actually involved.

That's like saying "I have a price to repair my car for $1000" and someone saying it too high? Too high for what exactly? An oil change or an engine rebuild?

w154
I didn’t really mean that the watchmakers quote was ridiculous, more that using a huge amount of NOS parts is a ridiculous solution to the problem at hand. Maybe I worded it badly. That’s why I suggested using a donor movement.

Not sure what you meant, only what you wrote.

w154
And then a question. If you had a donor 563 and this watch, how would you decide which part to use from each pair of parts that you have ? Would you prioritize using the part from the original movement even if it was in poorer condition than the donor ? I personally don’t see the logic in doing that.

No one is suggesting putting worn parts back in a movement to keep it original, so I have no idea where this idea even comes from. For typical wear parts, there would be no issue replacing them with good donor parts or new parts from Omega - that's how watches are serviced. For the wheel train bridge with the serial number on it, that's obviously (for most here) a different story, because it's a major parts in determining authenticity. It's not a part that gets worn out, so this is why using the parts from a donor movement is a much better idea than swapping out the entire movement as you have suggested.

w154
Well some customers probably couldn’t care less whether the movement started its life in the same reference. I don’t see why those type of customers should pay more just to satisfy the “originality is everything” mantra of the collecting community.

Which is exactly why I said that there should be disclosure if it’s sold on.

But as you know people don't always disclose things. If the OP were to follow your suggestions, you do understand that even if they disclose it at the time of sale, there's no guarantee someone else will the next time it's sold, right? Then someone who thinks they are getting an all original watch and maybe pays up for it, ends up finding out the movement is from some old DeVille...

Slippery slope condoning this kind of thing in my view.

bloomy · Sep 25, 2019

I had a vintage sm120 recently serviced here in Texas that had similar rust/issues with the movement and it was about $600 all in. That doesnt account for pain and suffering and dumped money along the way to find a competent watchmaker to work on vintage watches.

w154 · Sep 25, 2019

I’m still not sure I explicitly said the estimate was ridiculous... it’s just a ridiculous solution to the problem at hand. If I look back at what I wrote I can see that I meant that, but can see it’s easily read your way.

In the example you give for a car engine, if someone had a rusty and out of operation engine and they were quoted $1000 to fix it, wouldn’t it be a crazy thing to do if a refurbished working engine only cost $500. I don’t need to know what work is included for $1000. It makes no difference. That seems to be similar to the situation here.

Personally I think transferring a numbered bridge, or a signed bridge, from a knackered movement onto a donor is worse than just using a complete donor. It seems just as dishonest and removes all traceable evidence that something isn’t right. Would you be happy transferring just a few parts from an original speedy 321 to a donor just to keep the serial number correct ? And would the resulting movement be authentic ? In my first post should I have suggested transferring the donor across but swapping the numbered bridge ?

And regarding disclosure yes it’s of course difficult to control what happens down the line. All we can do as individuals is document publicly what we do and disclose everything at the point of sale.

Archer · Sep 25, 2019

w154
Personally I think transferring a numbered bridge, or a signed bridge, from a knackered movement onto a donor is worse than just using a complete donor. It seems just as dishonest and removes all traceable evidence that something isn’t right. Would you be happy transferring just a few parts from an original speedy 321 to a donor just to keep the serial number correct ? And would the resulting movement be authentic ? In my first post should I have suggested transferring the donor across but swapping the numbered bridge ?

Who has suggested that? Honestly I'm puzzled where you get these conclusions from. I have not suggested anything of the sort that you are implying here.

What I have suggested is that rather than swapping a whole movement over, or this new thing you are talking about with moving one bridge, is that the original movement gets properly serviced, and replacement wear parts as needed can be sourced either from Omega, a third party supplier, or a donor movement.

w154 · Sep 25, 2019

Yes but we’re talking about a water damaged movement. So I’m (perhaps incorrectly) assuming that there will be problems with a lot of the parts.

Archer · Sep 25, 2019

w154
Yes but we’re talking about a water damaged movement. So I’m (perhaps incorrectly) assuming that there will be problems with a lot of the parts.

Yes, likely we are. But that doesn't mean that the entire movement (including parts that would not be affected by water) would be discarded.

The proper way to do this is to disassemble the movement, clean it, then inspect each part to determine if it can be reused, repaired, or must be replaced. On some parts rust can be cleaned off, pivots can be burnished, etc. to be able to use parts again rather than replace them. It takes time to work this way, but it the way that is best able to preserve the parts and keep as much of the movement original to the watch as possible.

w154 · Sep 25, 2019

Archer
Yes, likely we are. But that doesn't mean that the entire movement (including parts that would not be affected by water) would be discarded.

The proper way to do this is to disassemble the movement, clean it, then inspect each part to determine if it can be reused, repaired, or must be replaced. On some parts rust can be cleaned off, pivots can be burnished, etc. to be able to use parts again rather than replace them. It takes time to work this way, but it the way that is best able to preserve the parts and keep as much of the movement original to the watch as possible.

I understand this point of view, but don’t see it as being clear cut in this case. And by that I don’t mean that it’s not the “proper way”, rather it’s not necessarily the sensible way for the OP. If it “takes time to work this way”, then obviously it also costs money to work this way.

Now if we were talking about a cal. 321 speedy then I’d absolutely agree 100%. If we were talking about some old DeVille I’d disagree pretty much 100%. We’re talking about something in the middle.

Dan S · Sep 25, 2019

w154
Personally I think transferring a numbered bridge, or a signed bridge, from a knackered movement onto a donor is worse than just using a complete donor. It seems just as dishonest and removes all traceable evidence that something isn’t right. Would you be happy transferring just a few parts from an original speedy 321 to a donor just to keep the serial number correct ? And would the resulting movement be authentic ? In my first post should I have suggested transferring the donor across but swapping the numbered bridge ?

w154
Yes but we’re talking about a water damaged movement. So I’m (perhaps incorrectly) assuming that there will be problems with a lot of the parts.

This discussion is getting a bit speculative, not to mention very far-removed from the OP's question. I have only minuscule experience compared to Al, but I have purchased watches with water-damaged movements where the vast majority of parts were ultimately able to be preserved, and certainly bridges were not the major problem, compared to jumpers, wheels, screws, and other parts with delicate features. Yes, there was an expense to clean the parts, but not necessarily exorbitant enough to justify replacing the entire movement. Don't forget, when you buy a donor movement, it will also need to be serviced, and sometimes repaired. And besides the explicit cost, there is a secondary cost due to the loss of originality.

Mouse_at_Large · Sep 25, 2019

I think there is a difference between authentic and original . You could take an authentic movement of the same calibre and drop it into the case you removed the original movement from. It will be still be an authentic Omega, just not an original Omega.

Then again, if you take originality to the extreme, anytime anything is replaced, even down to lube and seals etc, the watch, in the strictest sense, is no longer original 😵‍💫

Or maybe I'm just overthinking this 😀

Dan S · Sep 25, 2019

Mouse_at_Large
I think there is a difference between authentic and original . You could take an authentic movement of the same calibre and drop it into the case you removed the original movement from. It will be still be an authentic Omega, just not an original Omega.

Then again, if you take originality to the extreme, anytime anything is replaced, even down to lube and seals etc, the watch, in the strictest sense, is no longer original 😵‍💫

Or maybe I'm just overthinking this 😀

I think it's expected that expendables are replaced and movements will need repairs. Most people don't put that in the same category as swapping out an entire movement. If a movement is exchanged with a new service movement, then yes it's authentic (although with greatly reduced value as a collectible). But if a movement is replaced with the same caliber movement from a different reference, I'm not sure I would still call that watch authentic. It's probably a grey area, but we're pushing up against the limits IMO.

Archer · Sep 25, 2019

w154
I understand this point of view, but don’t see it as being clear cut in this case. And by that I don’t mean that it’s not the “proper way”, rather it’s not necessarily the sensible way for the OP. If it “takes time to work this way”, then obviously it also costs money to work this way.

Now if we were talking about a cal. 321 speedy then I’d absolutely agree 100%. If we were talking about some old DeVille I’d disagree pretty much 100%. We’re talking about something in the middle.

We have a fundamental difference in our approach then. I don't change the way I work if the watch is valued at $100, $1000, $10,000, or $100,000...just because a watch is not as valuable (at this point in time) doesn't mean I treat the servicing of it with less respect than I would for a currently valuable watch. Remember, 321 Speedmasters weren't all that valuable a number of years ago.

It's up to the customer if they want the work done this way, or if they want to take short cuts and swap in a movement from eBay and create a franken. If that's what they want, I'm not the guy for that sort of work.

Cheers, Al

Archer · Sep 25, 2019

Dan S
But if a movement is replaced with the same caliber movement from a different reference, I'm not sure I would still call that watch authentic. It's probably a grey area, but we're pushing up against the limits IMO.

I don't think most here would consider this a grey area - it's a franken no matter what the end value is.

Dan S · Sep 25, 2019

Archer
I don't think most here would consider this a grey area - it's a franken no matter what the end value is.

Ahh yes ... but an authentic franken or an inauthentic franken? 😉

w154 · Sep 25, 2019

Archer
We have a fundamental difference in our approach then. I don't change the way I work if the watch is valued at $100, $1000, $10,000, or $100,000...just because a watch is not as valuable (at this point in time) doesn't mean I treat the servicing of it with less respect than I would for a currently valuable watch. Remember, 321 Speedmasters weren't all that valuable a number of years ago.

It's up to the customer if they want the work done this way, or if they want to take short cuts and swap in a movement from eBay and create a franken. If that's what they want, I'm not the guy for that sort of work.

Cheers, Al

No we don’t really have a fundamental difference in our approach. I’m answering in regard to what the OP might want to do. Doesn’t mean that’s what I’d want to do.

w154 · Sep 25, 2019

Archer
I don't think most here would consider this a grey area - it's a franken no matter what the end value is.

Is it a franken if you need to change everything bar the plates and cocks due to water damage ? Where is the boundary ?

Dan S · Sep 25, 2019

w154
Is it a franken if you need to change everything bar the plates and cocks due to water damage ? Where is the boundary ?

As long as you don’t replace the soul of the original watch, it’s not a franken. 🙄

ChrisN · Sep 25, 2019

JwRosenthal
Well, I am one of the people watching this watch and planning on bidding towards the end if it's cheap enough- and I know I'm not the only one here.

.

I don't see it on eBay. Is it USA only?

I don't really need one, as I have one, so it's just out of interest.

Cheers, Chris

What is this Omega Seamaster 60 actually worth in this condition?

Archer

Dan S

w154

Archer

bloomy

w154

Archer

w154

Archer

w154

Dan S

Mouse_at_Large

Dan S

Archer

Archer

Dan S

w154

w154

Dan S

ChrisN

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