What information should be included in sales listings?

DirtyDozen12 · Apr 12, 2022

In light of a recent thread that touched on this topic, I wanted to start a discussion about the potential implementation of what I am calling a "Recommended Sales Listings Information Template" (catchy, I know). Firstly, I imagine that it would be voluntary to fill in this template. Secondly, how to correctly fill in the template would be open to interpretation. Thirdly, the template could either be presented in the thread entitled,
***PLEASE READ*** PRIVATE SELLERS & BUYERS SALES RULES FOR ALL LISTINGS INC PARTS & WTB, or built into all sales listings (not certain if this is feasible).

As a side note, I have bought numerous watches online with only blurry photos to go on. I primarily assess watches based on what I know, not what sellers tells me. However, I would always prefer to have access to more information, and I assume that most people here feel similarly. Obviously, access to a larger amount of information does not necessarily mean access to a larger amount of accurate information. Still, I would prefer to know what the seller knows about the watch that he/she is selling, even if that means learning that the seller knows very little.

With a voluntary template such as the one I am proposing, the aim would be to get a critical mass of respectable members to eventually use it thereby creating a sort of cultural norm. In other words, widespread use would render sales listings that excluded the template questionable. And to reiterate, the ultimate goal would be to provide prospective buyers with more information, in a relatively organized and consistent format.

Any thoughts? 😉

P.S. I apologize that the template is an image. I wrote it in Google Docs and it would not "Paste" properly.

Yves- · Apr 13, 2022

Maybe it's nice to know how and where the watch was procured, not sure how you can make that a rule of disclosure though. But as to the ' service history unknown'; it surprises me how an enthusiast has a nice watch, wears it but doesn't know service history... surely the seller can give more info such as what the current reserve time for an automatic is, for example.
You can't please everyone with words but the 'service history unknown' is not enough information to me, coming from an enthusiast, why make me ask for more?

apsm100 · Apr 13, 2022

'Unpolished case' is probably the most inaccurate description I've seen in listings; 'close to unpolished' is even worse. 😒

LesXL · Apr 13, 2022

The RLSIT is a good guideline, but I believe people should have the freedom/flexibility in writing their own listing, at the end, logic prevails... Wanna sell something rapidly, advertise it correctly, pricd appropriately (to the seller evaluation) and be responsive.

Of course, the more information the better, but that is also to the buyer to do his/her own homework, and ask any additional questions. Price negotiation is another topic.

Yves-
Maybe it's nice to know how and where the watch was procured, not sure how you can make that a rule of disclosure though. But as to the ' service history unknown'; it surprises me how an enthusiast has a nice watch, wears it but doesn't know service history... surely the seller can give more info such as what the current reserve time for an automatic is, for example.
You can't please everyone with words but the 'service history unknown' is not enough information to me, coming from an enthusiast, why make me ask for more?

I don't think the source of the watch would add much to the listing, the seller can say whatever his/her wants to.

As per the reserve time, I changed watches every day, I could not tell you the reserve time of each, when I open the watch box the following days to take another one, I sometimes see a previous worn watch is still running. I know accuracy is key for some members, and up to a degree for me too, but I don't have any need in my day to day life to be on the dot at any meeting. I appreciate some but not expecting cosc levels on vintages.

As per service history, if a watch was not serviced during your ownership, sure, it is important to disclose it, and if you don't know the previous history of it, then it is unknown.

I do not service all my watches, only the ones I believe would have a lengthy stay in my collection

Yves- · Apr 13, 2022

LesXL
The RLSIT is a good guideline, but I believe people should have the freedom/flexibility in writing their own listing, at the end, logic prevails... Wanna sell something rapidly, advertise it correctly, pricd appropriately (to the seller evaluation) and be responsive.

Of course, the more information the better, but that is also to the buyer to do his/her own homework, and ask any additional questions. Price negotiation is another topic.

I don't think the source of the watch would add much to the listing, the seller can say whatever his/her wants to.

As per the reserve time, I changed watches every day, I could not tell you the reserve time of each, when I open the watch box the following days to take another one, I sometimes see a previous worn watch is still running. I know accuracy is key for some members, and up to a degree for me too, but I don't have any need in my day to day life to be on the dot at any meeting. I appreciate some but not expecting cosc levels on vintages.

I see your point, homework should be mandatory really if you're into vintage watches 😀

tyrantlizardrex · Apr 13, 2022

Yves-
But as to the ' service history unknown'; it surprises me how an enthusiast has a nice watch, wears it but doesn't know service history... surely the seller can give more info such as what the current reserve time for an automatic is, for example.
You can't please everyone with words but the 'service history unknown' is not enough information to me, coming from an enthusiast, why make me ask for more?

The watches I’ve sold here come under three general “service history” headings:

1 - Serviced Watch: I bought it, had it serviced, have paperwork for the service and it still has some warranty on that service.

2 - Service history unknown: I bought it, it seems to be working and keeping time, but I don’t know when or if it was last serviced, and I want you as a buyer to know that it might run fine for another 10 years or it might stop and need a service in 10 days.

3 - Project Watch: It is not running. I have no service history. It will require the attention of a watchmaker before it works again.

For me, anything under heading 2 I would treat as something in need of attention, and have priced accordingly when selling and negotiated accordingly when buying.

I see what you’re saying about more info on watches with unknown service history, but have noticed that there is where you find sellers waxing lyrical about how good their watch that’s got no service history and using nonsense statements like “keeps good vintage time”. ::facepalm1::

Yves- · Apr 13, 2022

tyrantlizardrex
The watches I’ve sold here come under three general “service history” headings:

1 - Serviced Watch: I bought it, had it serviced, have paperwork for the service and it still has some warranty on that service.

2 - Service history unknown: I bought it, it seems to be working and keeping time, but I don’t know when or if it was last serviced, and I want you as a buyer to know that it might run fine for another 10 years or it might stop and need a service in 10 days.

3 - Project Watch: It is not running. I have no service history. It will require the attention of a watchmaker before it works again.

For me, anything under heading 2 I would treat as something in need of attention, and have priced accordingly when selling and negotiated accordingly when buying.

I see what you’re saying about more info on watches with unknown service history, but have noticed that there is where you find sellers waxing lyrical about how good their watch that’s got no service history and using nonsense statements like “keeps good vintage time”.

The trouble with vintage time is when you bought someone a watch and they get fired over it

Larry S · Apr 13, 2022

I think it is a good starting point. Basic details about the watch, service history, and any known issues. Photos should be clear, 360, inside case back and movement. Provenance is a plus.

cvalue13 · Apr 13, 2022

LesXL
at the end, logic prevails... Wanna sell something rapidly, advertise it correctly, pricd appropriately (to the seller evaluation) and be responsive.

+1

As far as a sticky if suggested format and topics to cover:

the existing posts of many seasoned collectors/sellers swiftly shows topics covered (and understand the utility of covering those topics in a sales post), and the range of descriptions that might apply in various scenarios, all with a rather minimal exertion of effort on the part of a seller

if a seller is not interested in exerting that minimal effort, there may or may not be a buyer for them

and for that sort of seller, I’m skeptical that a sticky format of topics to cover will regularly produce any better or more reliable “answers” to those topics

DirtyDozen12 · Apr 13, 2022

Thanks for all of the responses.

Yves-
Maybe it's nice to know how and where the watch was procured

I agree, though I feel that this information would be of secondary importance, whereas information about the dial, case, and movement would be of primary importance.

Yves-
it surprises me how an enthusiast has a nice watch, wears it but doesn't know service history...

As an example, I do not wear all of my watches so I do not get them serviced due to the associated cost and risk of damage. If I sell these watches, I would prefer to communicate to the buyer that the watch will probably need a service if it is intended to be worn.

apsm100
'Unpolished case' is probably the most inaccurate description I've seen in listings; 'close to unpolished' is even worse. 😒

Yes, often liberties are taken when describing case condition.

LesXL
The RLSIT is a good guideline, but I believe people should have the freedom/flexibility in writing their own listing, at the end, logic prevails... Wanna sell something rapidly, advertise it correctly, pricd appropriately (to the seller evaluation) and be responsive.

Of course, the more information the better, but that is also to the buyer to do his/her own homework, and ask any additional questions. Price negotiation is another topic.

Just to be clear, I imagine that the RSLIT would not replace traditional descriptions but rather be an additional component at the beginning or end of sales listings.

I agree that the buyer should do his/her own homework, however I do not think that this necessarily undermines the potential benefits of the RSLIT.

Larry S
I think it is a good starting point. Basic details about the watch, service history, and any known issues. Photos should be clear, 360, inside case back and movement. Provenance is a plus.

Thank you for the feedback.

cvalue13
the existing posts of many seasoned collectors/sellers swiftly shows topics covered (and understand the utility of covering those topics in a sales post), and the range of descriptions that might apply in various scenarios, all with a rather minimal exertion of effort on the part of a seller

Agreed, though on occasion salient information such as the case diameter is absent (I can think of one recent example). While it is easy enough to ask, maybe the template would serve as a reminder to sellers and help prevent these omissions.

cvalue13
and for that sort of seller, I’m skeptical that a sticky format of topics to cover will regularly produce any better or more reliable “answers” to those topics

Agreed, a sticky on its own will likely have little to no impact. However, as I stated in my original post, I do wonder what would happen if many members starting using the template/format. Of course, there will always be those who disregard conventions and go their own way, but I wonder if there is a large, 'tentative' group who would be swayed by a widespread adoption.

As I have thought more about this, maybe the primary benefit would not be more information for buyers, but quick access to key information in a familiar format. Rather than having to comb through a sales listing to find out if a watch is stainless steel or chrome-plated, the information would be right there (either at the beginning or end of the listing). Additionally, the template might serve as a guide to new buyers by emphasizing specific aspects of a watch that should bear scrutiny.

Dan S · Apr 13, 2022

DirtyDozen12
As I have thought more about this, maybe the primary benefit would not be more information for buyers, but quick access to key information in a familiar format. Rather than having to comb through a sales listing to find out if a watch is stainless steel or chrome-plated, the information would be right there (either at the beginning or end of the listing). Additionally, the template might serve as a guide to new buyers by emphasizing specific aspects of a watch that should bear scrutiny.

It would be nice if sellers would put the asking price in a highly visible location. 🙄

DirtyDozen12 · Apr 13, 2022

Dan S
It would be nice if sellers would put the asking price in a highly visible location. 🙄

Shouldn't it be up to the buyer to suggest a price? 😁

TheGreekPhysique · Apr 13, 2022

apsm100
'Unpolished case' is probably the most inaccurate description I've seen in listings; 'close to unpolished' is even worse. 😒

Just curious of your opinion: do you feel its overused and applied inaccurately to watches that have obviously been polished?

DirtyDozen12 · Apr 13, 2022

DirtyDozen12
Of course, there will always be those who disregard conventions and go their own way, but I wonder if there is a large, 'tentative' group who would be swayed by a widespread adoption.

@cvalue13

To clarify this point, let us say that there are two major types of sales listings in terms of the information that is provided by the seller: complete and incomplete. Let us also say that incomplete listings can be sub-divided into slightly incomplete and significantly incomplete. For sellers who usually produce complete listings, the template would only be potentially beneficial in terms of quick access to key information. For sellers who usually produce significantly incomplete listings, the template would probably have no impact as these sellers are probably not motivated to improve their listings. However, for sellers who usually produce slightly incomplete listings, the template might increase the amount of key information, in addition to formatting it for quick access.

Dan S · Apr 13, 2022

DirtyDozen12
Shouldn't it be up to the buyer to suggest a price? 😁

Auctions would be an interesting idea. ☕

Dgercp · Apr 13, 2022

I favor let the seller say what they want. Let the buyer beware. It's really simple Darwinism. The better, more detailed ads will sell better, and in fact these sellers for practical purposes are really doing a "template".

DirtyDozen12 · Apr 13, 2022

Dgercp
I favor let the seller say what they want. Let the buyer beware.

I suppose I wonder who benefits from this? It seems to me that it is not the buyers. As for the sellers, what is the benefit of saying what they want versus saying what they want plus including the template in their listings? Less time spent writing a sales listing? I do not think it would take much more than 5 minutes to fill out the template. And the upside would potentially be significant time savings for buyers who read through many listings.

apsm100 · Apr 13, 2022

TheGreekPhysique
Just curious of your opinion: do you feel its overused and applied inaccurately to watches that have obviously been polished?

Inaccurately applied. I understand it's a tricky thing to assess, but sometimes it seems dishonest.

cristos71 · Apr 13, 2022

Dgercp
I favor let the seller say what they want. Let the buyer beware. It's really simple Darwinism. The better, more detailed ads will sell better, and in fact these sellers for practical purposes are really doing a "template".

This is my feeling too. Part of the charm of collecting is the learning process, if things are not clear then do some research or ask a question!

cvalue13 · Apr 13, 2022

DirtyDozen12
However, for sellers who usually produce slightly incomplete listings, the template might increase the amount of key information, in addition to formatting it for quick access.

I guess I vaguely agree that there is a sub-set of sellers for whom a forum-provided template will be more useful than the current forum-provided template (looking through a few sales posts from long-time members/sellers).

Those potential benefits acknowledged, there remains the resulting question of what new downsides are introduced.

I’ll be the one to outloud say what I *think* some of us are thinking: it is the absence of a template/format that provides me information about the seller, nevermind information about the watch.

We around here always say “buy the seller,” and in that spirit I personally derive more information about how a seller behaves (length/content of post) when they’re not given prompts about which Watch information is germane.

When a sales post has 3 pictures of a vintage UG (a UG for god’s sake!) and only 3 lines of copy that amount to “seems fine to me!” - I’m in some respects pleased with the information that seller has provided me.

Give that same seller a series of prompts to fumble through some uninterested and uninformed responses, and have I lost something?

I’m not sure

What information should be included in sales listings?

DirtyDozen12

Yves-

apsm100

LesXL

Yves-

tyrantlizardrex

Yves-

Larry S

cvalue13

DirtyDozen12

Dan S

DirtyDozen12

TheGreekPhysique

DirtyDozen12

Dan S

Dgercp

DirtyDozen12

apsm100

cristos71

cvalue13

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