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What has happened to the Country (Western Civilization)

arkstfan
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
That's not really true either. We don't have people dying in the street in the US, unless that is their choice.

The law here is that a hospital can't refuse to treat someone who requires treatment because they don't have health insurance. If they are a totally private hospital (which very few are), they have a duty to stabilize a patient in the ER, then transport them to the closest public hospital. The public hospitals are funded through taxpayer dollars to be able to take care of these people.

Hence my statement above that we all are paying, one way or another.
gatorcpa

Right. We won't pay for you to get blood pressure medicine but once you have the stroke they will take care of you at the hospital until you are stable and might even dig up a cane or walker for you.

Won't generally pay for your diabetes medication but when your foot gets gnarly amputation is on the house.
 
gatorcpa
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tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
Apologies for my misunderstanding.
No problems, mate.

Under the US health care system, the insurance companies are going to make money. It's guaranteed by law. Otherwise, there would be no safety net for those who are too poor for "Cadillac" health insurance and too well-off for Medicaid. Which is most of us.

I've never understood why in the US, health care coverage had to be dependent on your employer and what they were willing to pay. Leave the job and lose the coverage.

The dirty American secret is that all businesses, large and small, want workers to be dependent on them for cheaper group health care coverage during our working lives. Once we retire, there is Social Security/Medicare and supplemental plans available (for those who can afford them).

If you think I'm kidding, go form your own business and try to find affordable health care insurance for just you and your family. Under Obamacare, it's difficult, but it can be done. Under the old system, it was almost impossible if you have a pre-existing condition.

Obamacare isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we had before.
gatorcpa
 
arkstfan
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
No problems, mate.

Under the US health care system, the insurance companies are going to make money. It's guaranteed by law. Otherwise, there would be no safety net for those who are too poor for "Cadillac" health insurance and too well-off for Medicaid. Which is most of us.

I've never understood why in the US, health care coverage had to be dependent on your employer and what they were willing to pay. Leave the job and lose the coverage.

The dirty American secret is that all businesses, large and small, want workers to be dependent on them for cheaper group health care coverage during our working lives. Once we retire, there is Social Security/Medicare and supplemental plans available (for those who can afford them).

If you think I'm kidding, go form your own business and try to find affordable health care insurance for just you and your family. Under Obamacare, it's difficult, but it can be done. Under the old system, it was almost impossible if you have a pre-existing condition.

Obamacare isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we had before.
gatorcpa

Nothing screams capitalist nation like creating a barrier to entry for budding capitalists.
 
gatorcpa
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arkstfan arkstfan
Nothing screams capitalist nation like creating a barrier to entry for budding capitalists.
But yet, some people think Obama is a communist because he favors health care for all.

Go figure.
gatorcpa
 
Ray916MN
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The entire frame of reference for thinking is at the center of the issue in my opinion. Western civilization sees the world through a lens of right and wrong, an absolutist view. The east has traditionally seen the world through the lens of yin and yang, a lens of relativism.

Right versus wrong means, the answer is always obvious and undeniable. Yin versus yang means, you never gain something without losing something and the path to take is the balance between tradeoffs, everything is relative and depends on the situation and tradeoffs.

When you conceive of the world as right versus wrong, extremism is the normal end state. You can never be too right and being wrong is the same as being too wrong. Right versus wrong plays to the ego, because being right is unequivocal proof of superiority. Right versus wrong is the fodder of sound bites and emotional exhortation.

Yin versus yang defies simplification and rule making. The path to take always depends on the tradeoffs which depend on the situation. It can not be exhorted by reactionary demagogues manipulating those who do not have the information, ability, opportunity or resources to handle the complexity of the challenges we face. Apply this same kind of thinking to the systems which govern societies, democracy/capitalism, socialism, communism and throw in religion an absolutism leads to reactionary popularism led by demigods. .
 
tyrantlizardrex
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
But yet, some people think Obama is a communist because he favors health care for all.

Go figure.
gatorcpa

Jeebus. On a global scale he's pretty much dead centre... with a tiny bit in the left, and tiny bit in the right.
 
Texas_Tom
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The new style Republican Evangelical Christian FAR right believes that they are correct because they "have God in their party". They seem to have forgotten that the US was created as a society based on the Freedom OF and FROM government dictated religion. If the GOP would spend less focus on what I am doing in my bedroom (wouldn't YOU like to know), or any other asinine laws they pick and choose from the bible then maybe we could meet in the middle and focus on things that matter.

on the other end is the Bern:

Bernie is all about reintroducing the FDR New Deal, reinvent the wealth distribution to America, attack the financial fatcats and move money back to the lower class to build them up to the middle class. Ok... looks good on paper... I am not convinced he could get anything done, but it is a grand idea.

real Issues that need focus:

The US health industry is a TRILLION dollar business, and it is in the business of getting rich off of sick and dying people.. how perverse can you be? You shouldn't have to be "rich enough" to get good healthcare and life saving medicine; but the #1 leading cause of bankruptcy is healthcare. We are all one medical disaster away from the poor house. We needed to do SOMETHING.. although the idea behind the ACA was a great idea.. the execution and forward planning SUCKED. It is a flop, go back to the drawing board, it didn't work the way it was dreamed up.

Education: The US is falling farther behind the other developed nations as a education level per capita percentage, we still produce the most idea creationists and the dreamers, but the "doers", the math, science and engineering... ya we have to offshore that..

Jobs: how do we create American jobs? STOP OFFSHORING JOBS, yes it is cheaper, and that is all the shareholders care about.

Ok.. #rant #soapbox
 
LouS
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Texas_Tom Texas_Tom
although the idea behind the ACA was a great idea.. the execution and forward planning SUCKED. It is a flop, go back to the drawing board, it didn't work the way it was dreamed up.

This. Sabotaged, Because there does not exist the political will to stand up to the insurance industry. Nor will it ever arise. It's expensive business getting elected.
 
Impondering
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The "Unholy Alliance" as referenced by Rand Paul. Both parties are to blame. This partly explains the success of those running against the Ruling Class:

 
flyingout
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mozartman mozartman
What a depressing thread.
I'm not so sure. A fairly substantive political discussion ON THE INTERNET that hasn't immediately devolved into 🤬. And on a watch forum to boot.
250scr 250scr
I just can't wait until no more Obamacare.
Texas_Tom Texas_Tom
We needed to do SOMETHING.. although the idea behind the ACA was a great idea.. the execution and forward planning SUCKED. It is a flop, go back to the drawing board, it didn't work the way it was dreamed up.
I know it's not the same everywhere and for everyone. Some states opted out or had problems. And the federal system was I mess I know. Improvements? Sure. But for me, I selected the same (for profit) provider I was paying before, but have a much much better plan at a lower cost (without subsidy).
 
mozartman
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flyingout flyingout
I'm not so sure. A fairly substantive political discussion ON THE INTERNET that hasn't immediately devolved into 🤬. And on a watch forum to boot.
Yes. You rarely see this said on any discussion forum, but thank you to gatorcpa and several others here who not only understand but can simply express some basic facts regarding some key American political issues. Far from being clowns, most of our politicians are shrewd and skilled showmen who can and will allow for and exploit ignorance and foolish prejudices (no matter how low they have to stoop to do it), so it's great to see the distinct lack of ignorance here. I see these political issues arise on all my discussion fora (none of which are supposed to be about politics), but I decided to say something on this one, and you watch people turned out to have some of the most intelligent comments to make and justified my choice.
 
Tiny Iota
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LouS LouS
this is the big fiction. people from abroad think people are dying in the streets in the US. It's not so, and never was. The Emergency Department may not turn any ill person away by law. Sick people get care, insured or not.
So afterwards they won't then give that person a massive bill, that may cause life-long financial problems?
 
U
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Tony C. Tony C.
Here's a good synopsis of what a buffoon Trump is, and how dangerous it might be were he to be elected:


Up until this, I had no idea who John Oliver is. Gonna look for his program now because that was great.
 
CanberraOmega
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gatorcpa gatorcpa
That's not really true either. We don't have people dying in the street in the US, unless that is their choice.

The law here is that a hospital can't refuse to treat someone who requires treatment because they don't have health insurance. If they are a totally private hospital (which very few are), they have a duty to stabilize a patient in the ER, then transport them to the closest public hospital. The public hospitals are funded through taxpayer dollars to be able to take care of these people.

Hence my statement above that we all are paying, one way or another.
gatorcpa
True. But if you don't have Insurance, GPs/family physicians aren't free/subsidised. The medicine to keep you out of hospital isn't free/subsidised. Etc, etc.
 
gatorcpa
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U ulackfocus
Up until this, I had no idea who John Oliver is. Gonna look for his program now because that was great.
Sunday nights at 11:00pm Eastern on HBO.

Tiny Iota Tiny Iota
So afterwards they won't then give that person a massive bill, that may cause life-long financial problems?
Depends on state law. That could happen in some cases, in others it would be illegal.

That's above my pay grade.
gatorcpa
 
BlackTalon
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CanberraOmega CanberraOmega
True. But if you don't have Insurance, GPs/family physicians aren't free/subsidised. The medicine to keep you out of hospital isn't free/subsidised. Etc, etc.
Eh, it's never 'free' anyway -- there are deductibles, co-pays, etc. Even with insurance coverage a visit to the emergency room where you are released the same day can easily cost you over $500, and it you overnight you will be paying a bit more. And bear in mind a lot of health insurance policies exceed $500/ mo. At my company we fully pay the health insurance premiums for our employees, and it averages over $600/ mo per employee. Most places have the employees pay a portion of the premiums.
 
CanberraOmega
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BlackTalon BlackTalon
Eh, it's never 'free' anyway -- there are deductibles, co-pays, etc. Even with insurance coverage a visit to the emergency room where you are released the same day can easily cost you over $500, and it you overnight you will be paying a bit more. And bear in mind a lot of health insurance policies exceed $500/ mo. At my company we fully pay the health insurance premiums for our employees, and it averages over $600/ mo per employee. Most places have the employees pay a portion of the premiums.
Putting taxes to one side, (because yes, we all pay in some way):
- all public hospital treatment in Australia is FREE at point of service. Everything from broken bone to triple by-pass to organ transplant.
- about 75% of GP/family physician visits are FREE at point of service
- a majority of pathology and diagnostic imaging services are FREE at point of service
- prescription drugs for most people cost no more than $40 per script, and for pensioners, concession card holders, it is about $4.
 
BlackTalon
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I should have probably started my last post with "'Eh, in the US it's never 'Free' anyway..." I did not bother as I thought you were referring to the US in your previous post.
 
gatorcpa
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CanberraOmega CanberraOmega
True. But if you don't have Insurance, GPs/family physicians aren't free/subsidised. The medicine to keep you out of hospital isn't free/subsidised. Etc, etc.
True. But there are clinics, usually associated with public hospitals, for that. Service isn't anywhere near what you would receive from a private physician.

Believe me, there are very few left out in the streets. The main problem is not with the uninsured, it's with the underinsured. Those middle-income folks, who maybe work for themselves or small companies and have incomplete coverage. For them, an unexpected, serious illness could have devastating financial consequences. They could wind up in personal bankruptcy. There are many instances where the elderly are left underinsured by Medicare and can't afford to take as much medication as the doctors prescribe.

This is why people are so upset about Obamacare. It really doesn't do much for the middle class. However, it's better than no insurance at all, which has been the Republican party line so far. Mitt Romney, a Republican governor, implemented a plan very similar to Obamacare in Massachusetts. He was forced by the party to disavow it when he ran for President in 2012.

Most of all, I hate hypocrisy.
gatorcpa
 
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