What Bienne used to do:

ulackfocus · Apr 24, 2015

Gemini4
If you feel this strongly, why do you collect Swiss watches?

Have you seen what's been going on? Where do you think all these watches that are being posted with reference to "Joizey" are coming from? Now, this isn't even the real reason I'm selling nearly my whole collection, but now that you bring it up you've got me thinking it's just one more reason to get out of watches entirely.

oddboy · Apr 24, 2015

@Shem, would you settle for modern replacements that looked the same? Like the 321 service dial, if it was stepped, but SL, would that be ok? Curious..

mondodec · Apr 24, 2015

I don't doubt your sincerity at all Watchtinker, but I would never send a vintage Constellation or Seamaster of mine to Bienne. A point for consideration that challenges your assertion about the ethos being to restore to factory specifications is the Bienne practice of replacing old parts with 'nearest-to', thus compromising the integrity of the watch. For example, Omega appears not to have any chronometer rotor bridges left for the mid-500 series of calibres and replaces the bridge with an unmarked or cal 550 generic bridge. Other specialist independent watchmakers that I have dealt with would call on their networks to source the "correct" bridge or dis-assemble a parts movement just to get it "right"

In respect to Constellations, over time I have seen coming out of Bienne a lot of 'nearest-to' solutions: nearest-to stick hands that are too short on C-Shapes and even stick hands applied to a 168.005 Constellation, nearest-to dial refinishing that is grossly sub-standard, unauthorised refinishing of an excellent dial when a dial brush would have sufficed to remove any minute traces of lacquer powdering, and many other examples of watches not being restored to "factory specifications".

I think there are different ways to interpret factory specifications. The way Bienne has tended to interpreted the phrase in its service regime is transform an old watch into a new-looking one. This works with restorations of 1970's tool watches because Omega still has an extensive parts supply, but it doesn't work for watches that have entered the true vintage genre.

In all fields of collecting that I can think of, as well as theorists and conservators of our industrial heritage, the practice is to conserve rather than refurbish. In the case of mass-produced timepieces, many of us have made a compromise and opted for practical conservation, aiming for as much factory originality as possible but not at the price of having the watch inoperative. I was hopeful during the Omegamania build-up that perhaps that Omega in Bienne, having invested so much in extolling the value of its own heritage, would adopt a more sophisticated approach when dealing with vintage watches. But instead, we continue to see this clash of values between Omega and the collecting community that supports the brand.

In truth, the preference for originality is not new at all. It has been a fundamental tenet in the collecting and preservation fine art, objet d'art, antique furniture, jewellery, and indeed timepieces for as long as there have been collectors.

Cheers

Desmond

jordn · Apr 24, 2015

watchtinker
Gentlemen, whatever you may think, these watches were born as good, robust and reasonably priced timekeepers. And the guideline has always been to bring them back, at any service, to their original specifications. This has always meant to change bezels, hands, dials, crowns, pushers and movement parts in order to deliver a watch performing in accordance to its original specifications.
Now the trend seems to consider these timepieces on the same level of a minute repeater with a cloisonne dial. Obviously this is not the case

I would agree with you if I thought of my watches as merely functional tools, but long gone are the days when mechanical watches were practical. While I do use all of my watches to tell time, they are purely emotional products that are akin to works of art or historical artifacts for me. As a professional cellist trained at a conservatory, preservation is my life's work and that applies to my watch collecting as well. Moreover, I don't think it's fair to compare a chronograph to a minute repeater. I have spent the last 25 years practicing several hours a day and honing my skills as a performer of classical music, but I don't think that my work is anymore valid or important than the work of, let's say, a R&B singer. It is as everything is, subjective.

U ulackfocus
"I was just following orders".

Now where have I heard that defense before?

I know you meant that in jest, but it did come dangerous close to comparing his views in watch repair to complacency of Nazi soldiers. That's more than a bit untenable

Shem · Apr 24, 2015

oddboy
@Shem, would you settle for modern replacements that looked the same? Like the 321 service dial, if it was stepped, but SL, would that be ok? Curious..

I would want replacements that are exactly the same in appearance and materials, even if they are newly manufactured and not NOS from the past. Then you're truly bringing the watch back to factory specs as it left the factory, as opposed to what seems to pass as such now: "it still tells time."

oddboy · Apr 24, 2015

Shem
even if they are newly manufactured and not NOS from the past.

That's a good point, I can't see it being that hard to manufacture such parts.. guess it's a matter of scale maybe? At what cost? If a new dial cost $1000 (instead of $200), would people buy them?

..i guess they do!

jordn · Apr 24, 2015

oddboy
That's a good point, I can't see it being that hard to manufacture such parts.. guess it's a matter of scale maybe? At what cost? If a new dial cost $1000 (instead of $200), would people buy them?

..i guess they do!

It does seem like with all of the vintage re-editions being made today that the watch companies are aware of the demand for vintage models, but getting the proper infrastructure set up to create older parts might be too much of a gamble to try and convince the likes of Swatch or Richemont. We have to remember that people like us make up a tiny percentage of their customers. I personally dream of the day when they would start using tritium again.

oddboy · Apr 24, 2015

Hmm, would a 2998 fit in a FOIS case?

😀

I agree jordn, hard to justify for such a small fraction of customers.. but I bet they could make money on a smaller scale in the niche market.

Traveler · Apr 24, 2015

Gemini4
If you feel this strongly, why do you collect Swiss watches?

Errrr because they are the best ?! I don't think @ulackfocus's possession of anything made in Switzerland invalidates his historically correct argument....

STANDY · Apr 24, 2015

We have to remember that people like us make up a tiny percentage of their customers

Bingo
We are a small part of the equation. A large percentage of people will only buy one new watch like a Omega or Rolex in there lives

They dont really want to service our old watches they want to service a watch for 25 years and sell us a new model.

The times have changed all get used to it.

I remember paying $700 dollars for the first 30G Ipod and taking it in for a new battery after 2 years and getting the buy a new model spiel . After a WTF $350 a year to have a Ipod, Only then i was told i could get a $125 battery replacement program.

VetPsychWars · Apr 24, 2015

mondodec
A point for consideration that challenges your assertion about the ethos being to restore to factory specifications is the Bienne practice of replacing old parts with 'nearest-to', thus compromising the integrity of the watch. For example, Omega appears not to have any chronometer rotor bridges left for the mid-500 series of calibres and replaces the bridge with an unmarked or cal 550 generic bridge. Other specialist independent watchmakers that I have dealt with would call on their networks to source the "correct" bridge or dis-assemble a parts movement just to get it "right".

Almost no one looks at the movement and could care less about what is engraved on that bridge. I get that YOU care about it but the vast majority of the planet doesn't care.

As long as Grandpa's watch keeps time, that's all that matters.

Tom

ulackfocus · Apr 24, 2015

VetPsychWars
As long as Grandpa's watch keeps time, that's all that matters.

Remarks like that won't get you in the club, Tom. 🤦

(Sorry, couldn't resist! 😜 I know what you meant.)

250scr · Apr 24, 2015

In the end, all of our hobbies, interest, collections of miscellaneous (so called treasures) gets us 6 feet under or in jar. Spend a little more time with family and friends, rather than worrying about how much something is worth or going to be worth. Unless, you don't have any family or friends then I guess collect away. I started kind of making this a hobby 6 months ago and it really doesn't make me any happier, but just more knowledgeable about watches in general. I still would rather spend time shooting the breeze with a friend than surfing the I-net for treasures.

STANDY · Apr 24, 2015

250scr
I started kind of making this a hobby 6 months ago and it really doesn't make me any happier, but just more knowledgeable about watches in general.

I Dont do anything that does not make me happy.( Besides the lawns 🤦)

oddboy · Apr 24, 2015

This thread could have been interesting....

250scr · Apr 24, 2015

STANDY
I Dont do anything that does not make me happy.( Besides the lawns 🤦)

Haa. Luckily, my high school friend has an $11,000 zero turn lawnmower and ends up cutting my grass, in return I help him cut a few lawns every week. Nice having good friends.

flyingout · Apr 24, 2015

oddboy
This thread could have been interesting....

Right

STANDY · Apr 24, 2015

oddboy
This thread could have been interesting....

Hows it not.

It is Anzac day in Australia and i have no issue with anyone a bringing up cold hard facts about History and what happened.

Forum where people get to put views forward and even if it strays off the topic 🤬 i might start talking about Koalas from now on.

Koalas aren't bears as many people are led to believe. They aren't even related to bears.
The koala's scientific name is Phasclarctos Cinereus.

This Forum is great in that way

ulackfocus · Apr 24, 2015

STANDY

See the expression on that oversized rodent's face? He's looking at the people next door grilling big, juicy steaks while he's stuck eating a salad. 😜

trama · Apr 24, 2015

STANDY
Koalas aren't bears as many people are led to believe. They aren't even related to bears.

This is a tantalizing look into your exclusive knowledge of the amazing and unique megafauna of the Australian continent!! I implore you, what is this deadly dropbear I hear whispers of??

What Bienne used to do:

ulackfocus

oddboy

mondodec

jordn

Shem

oddboy

jordn

oddboy

Traveler

STANDY

VetPsychWars

ulackfocus

250scr

STANDY

oddboy

250scr

flyingout

STANDY

ulackfocus

trama

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