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Watchmakers in Singapore that can mod a 321 service dial?

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Iggydang
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I'm trying to do the same build of modding a 1861 Speedy with a 321 dial. Managed to get hold of a 064PP2001002A pro step dial, but I've been having issues finding a watchmaker in Singapore that can do the same dial work as the OP from that thread. I've gone through some previous threads in OF asking for recommended Omega watchmakers in Singapore and this is what I've gotten back from local watchmakers so far:

Horolab (rebranded) - Waiting on a reply as they rebranded a few years ago and no longer do mechanical watch servicing due to a lack of parts. Seems the business focuses on authentication now.
JW Horological - Not willing to do the work and told me the other watchmakers they know who would do dial work have retired.
Watchlab - They don't do mods.
Bonfield - Willing to do the work, but quoted me $1090 - trying to find other quotes to see if it's reasonable for Singapore as it seems rather high for just a dial mod and swap without an associated service.
The Watch Specialist's Clinic - Not willing to do the work.

Would appreciate if any members from Singapore could chime in with any recommendations for watchmakers who can do dial work for this mod. Thanks in advance!
 
ErichKeane
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Huh! Interesting! Not capable of handling something that nice (a 321 dial), but I would think it should be easy enough. IF it were me, I'd make a set of tools to reduce the diameter of the feet (sort of a reverse reamer?) if they don't already exist. Shortening is obviously pretty easy...

But curious to see what folks would come up with, it doesn't have to be horribly accurate I'd imagine (there is alot of leeway in dial feet diameters it seems).
 
Donn Chambers
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Iggydang Iggydang
I'm trying to do the same build of modding a 1861 Speedy with a 321 dial. Managed to get hold of a 064PP2001002A pro step dial, but I've been having issues finding a watchmaker in Singapore that can do the same dial work as the OP from that thread. I've gone through some previous threads in OF asking for recommended Omega watchmakers in Singapore and this is what I've gotten back from local watchmakers so far:

Horolab (rebranded) - Waiting on a reply as they rebranded a few years ago and no longer do mechanical watch servicing due to a lack of parts. Seems the business focuses on authentication now.
JW Horological - Not willing to do the work and told me the other watchmakers they know who would do dial work have retired.
Watchlab - They don't do mods.
Bonfield - Willing to do the work, but quoted me $1090 - trying to find other quotes to see if it's reasonable for Singapore as it seems rather high for just a dial mod and swap without an associated service.
The Watch Specialist's Clinic - Not willing to do the work.

Would appreciate if any members from Singapore could chime in with any recommendations for watchmakers who can do dial work for this mod. Thanks in advance!
Are you certain the Bonfield quote did not include a service as well? Many watchmakers do not want to do ANY work on a watch unless they have fully serviced it first. Imagine this scenario - the watch stops working a week after it is returned to you. Who do you blame? Just a coincidence? Very possibly. But most likely, you blame the watchmaker, then demand he fix a problem in the movement that he never took apart or serviced - for free. Requiring a service when replacing any part saves them this potential problem - if something goes wrong afterwards, they WILL accept responsibility then, because they performed the service.

Many auto mechanics now refuse to replace parts with ones customers bring them for the same reason - if it fails, they won’t warranty it (or the labor), but the customer wants them to.
 
Iggydang
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ErichKeane ErichKeane
Huh! Interesting! Not capable of handling something that nice (a 321 dial), but I would think it should be easy enough. IF it were me, I'd make a set of tools to reduce the diameter of the feet (sort of a reverse reamer?) if they don't already exist. Shortening is obviously pretty easy...

But curious to see what folks would come up with, it doesn't have to be horribly accurate I'd imagine (there is alot of leeway in dial feet diameters it seems).
It's quite interesting, I originally referenced this post by Archer showing the difference between the 321 and 861 feet in telling the watchmakers what would need to be done. I thought the thicker base of the 321 dial would be an issue in trying to reduce the diameter, but when I opened the packaging the current Omega 321 dial feet looks a lot closer to what the 861 example was with the thin bit of solder/weld(?) at the bottom attaching it to the dial. Shouldn't be an issue for any watchmaker with the appropriate tool now the base isn't in the way of the diameter being reduced, but basically everyone I've asked seems to not have the tool to reduce the feet diameter, or just doesn't think it's worth the effort.
IMG_4664.webp

For reference - this is the backside of the dial with the feet. Same PP2001002A marking as the other dial, and Singer branding.

Donn Chambers Donn Chambers
Are you certain the Bonfield quote did not include a service as well? Many watchmakers do not want to do ANY work on a watch unless they have fully serviced it first. Imagine this scenario - the watch stops working a week after it is returned to you. Who do you blame? Just a coincidence? Very possibly. But most likely, you blame the watchmaker, then demand he fix a problem in the movement that he never took apart or serviced - for free. Requiring a service when replacing any part saves them this potential problem - if something goes wrong afterwards, they WILL accept responsibility then, because they performed the service.

Many auto mechanics now refuse to replace parts with ones customers bring them for the same reason - if it fails, they won’t warranty it (or the labor), but the customer wants them to.
They didn't mention if it included a service, but from our conversation it didn't appear to me to also include one. For reference, bringing it back to Omega would run me around $1400, so if it did the pricing would make a lot more sense.

From what I told them I wanted, the quote given was for:
1. The modification of the 321 dial,
2. Swapping the 321 dial with the current 1861 dial,
3. The re-attachment of a loose seconds subdial hand that fell off when I tried to remove the existing bezel, and
4. The installation of either a Spiralwinder ceramic bezel or the Apollo 15 radial bezel (haven't decided yet which I want) to replace the existing bezel.

The quote shocked me since the biggest work should be the dial feet modification, and the rest seems quite simple to do for most watchmakers, so being 2/3rds of the way to a full service just for a bit of dial work seems quite steep. I also contacted the OP in the other thread that did the same mod and swap and his watchmaker did it for quite a bit less than $200 USD. I've also sent them another message asking to confirm if it includes any other work and if the quote would still be valid if a service was performed at the same time. I'm a bit hesitant to do a service at the same time as I had bought this watch to do this build and from what I was told by the seller a full service was done at the start of the year, so it seems redundant if another were done half a year later. From the fact that I haven't been able to find another shop willing to do it, it could just be a "get out" quote!
 
Iggydang
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Also just for reference if anyone in Singapore would like to do similar work in the future - here's the other places I've asked:

Horolab (rebranded) - Update from first post: said the work would require the watch to be taken apart, and they were afraid of any gaskets that would need to be replaced as they didn't have an Omega parts account. When pressed further they said they didn't do mods with third-party or customer supplied parts due to the liability involved.
K2 Watch Co - They said they couldn't do such dial work.
Vista Time - Similar, said they were unable to do dial work - concerned with how to reduce the diameter of the dial feet with the comparison photo but didn't reply after I provided the photo of the new dial.
Global Watch Service Centre - Pending reply.
Watch Repair Service Centre - Pending a reply.
Watch It! - Wasn't able to reduce the diameter of the dial feet, but is willing to swap the 321 feet for the 1861 feet on the existing dial, pending an examination of the dial and watch as they admit there's a higher risk of damaging the dial when replacing feet. Quoted around $400 for all the work, which is about what I was expecting. Probably going to drop by their shop tomorrow and talk to them if I don't get a better reply from the other 2 above, but I'm quite worried about the process of soldering the new dial feet on so will see what they say.
 
ErichKeane
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I wouldn't be a huge fan of soldering new feet onto a dial. Perhaps the are good enough at it, but it is such a risk to the paint on the dial side if it gets too hot.

I've been looking, I'm a touch surprised there isn't a tool to do this! It seems like it would be easy to make a OD-reamer type thing to shave a little off it...
 
Iggydang
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ErichKeane ErichKeane
I wouldn't be a huge fan of soldering new feet onto a dial. Perhaps the are good enough at it, but it is such a risk to the paint on the dial side if it gets too hot.
Funnily enough they were more worried that removing the existing thicker 321 dial feet would damage the dial, not the installation of the thinner 861/1861 feet, which at least gives me some hope that they have experience in soldering new feet on. They never actually mentioned soldering though, but I don't think glue or any other cement would be strong enough to hold it in place? At least they didn't suggest dial dots...

ErichKeane ErichKeane
I've been looking, I'm a touch surprised there isn't a tool to do this! It seems like it would be easy to make a OD-reamer type thing to shave a little off it...
The OP of the other thread did post a short video talking with the watchmaker that did the mod - seems to be some kind of handheld centreless grinder (think that's the name of the tool) from his hand movements. The comment about it exerting quite a bit of force on the foot as it grinds also hints it's probably meant for something a lot less fragile than a dial foot, so I'm not surprised nobody here seems to know what he was talking about.
 
ErichKeane
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Iggydang Iggydang
Funnily enough they were more worried that removing the existing thicker 321 dial feet would damage the dial, not the installation of the thinner 861/1861 feet, which at least gives me some hope that they have experience in soldering new feet on. They never actually mentioned soldering though, but I don't think glue or any other cement would be strong enough to hold it in place? At least they didn't suggest dial dots...


The OP of the other thread did post a short video talking with the watchmaker that did the mod - seems to be some kind of handheld centreless grinder (think that's the name of the tool) from his hand movements. The comment about it exerting quite a bit of force on the foot as it grinds also hints it's probably meant for something a lot less fragile than a dial foot, so I'm not surprised nobody here seems to know what he was talking about.
For dial feet, I've used a kit that uses super glue to attach them (replacement dial feet have these big flat plates on the bottom) and they do great/will hold no problem.

INTERESTING explaination on that video. I suspect he's talking about a tool that scrapes a metal bit on the side as you twist it, which could risk twisting it off. The key there of course is getting your tool's rake angle right to minimize tool pressure (and thus force), and probably sticking to small cuts. (I doubt it is a grinder? Would be weird to do that for something like this).

As its only 0.15mm or so, I actually would wonder if modifying the movement would be easier. I'd have to see what was in the way on the 1861/3861 (I have never taken one apart, and am far from a 'watchmaker'), but I would wonder if running a reamer in the movement would be easier/less error-prone. IF it could be done with clearance issues, it is probably more 'dummy proof'. It WOULD perhaps mean the original dial couldn't go back on, but shrug.
 
Archer
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Iggydang Iggydang
The OP of the other thread did post a short video talking with the watchmaker that did the mod - seems to be some kind of handheld centreless grinder (think that's the name of the tool) from his hand movements. The comment about it exerting quite a bit of force on the foot as it grinds also hints it's probably meant for something a lot less fragile than a dial foot, so I'm not surprised nobody here seems to know what he was talking about.
Jim Lubic - haven't seen him in years.

Anyway, it's likely he used a Bergeon 30512 - used for removing excess solder at the base of the dial foot from when you solder new feet on, and has cutters for that. Just a hand held tool that you slowly turn...and it shaves off the dial foot.
 
ErichKeane
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Archer Archer
Jim Lubic - haven't seen him in years.

Anyway, it's likely he used a Bergeon 30512 - used for removing excess solder at the base of the dial foot from when you solder new feet on, and has cutters for that. Just a hand held tool that you slowly turn...and it shaves off the dial foot.
Oh, interesting! I see that tool now, it is a little cruder than what I had in mind, and I don't think I'd use that to reduce the diameter of the foot. For something like this (as a hobby machinist experience, not as a hobby watchmaker 😁) I'd want something lower tool pressure, so single point/single cutter. I'd also probably make something a little more "exactly for purpose" because of it (that is, not as adjustable).
 
Ron_W
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What type of holder would u use to fix the dial, and do you need to support the foot when using a type of file ?
 
WatchIdiot
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ErichKeane ErichKeane
I wouldn't be a huge fan of soldering new feet onto a dial. Perhaps the are good enough at it, but it is such a risk to the paint on the dial side if it gets too hot.

I've been looking, I'm a touch surprised there isn't a tool to do this! It seems like it would be easy to make a OD-reamer type thing to shave a little off it...
Yeah I thought they glued new feet on, hot enough to solder would burn the face of the dial
 
Iggydang
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Hi everyone, thanks for all the tips. Went with Watch It! in the end to do the work as the other 2 service centres above also weren't able to modify the dial feet.

They didn't know about the Bergeon 30512 but were confident in being able to solder new dial feet on as in their experience only lacquered dials have issue with heat from the soldering (quoted the 321 dial feet as 1.13mm in diameter and the 861 dial as 0.95mm, if anyone would like to know). Price was quite reasonable at $200 for both dial feet, $80 to swap the bezel and $80 to re-attach the dropped minute sub-dial and adjust the chrono hand to stop it fouling on the minute hand - about US$280 in total for all the work. Handed them the watch on Monday afternoon, confirmed the dial swap was possible on Tuesday night, and got a message that the watch was ready on Thursday evening, so super fast as well.

Because every thread is worthless without at least a photo:
IMG_4694.webp


If the soldering did damage the dial, I can't see it (and please don't tell me).

Full list of mods:
  • eBay Japan special 3594.50 base (with case polish and recent service, but corroded applied logo, broad arrow hands, and dented bezel so perfect since I wasn't going to keep any of those parts)
  • Spiralwinder double-bevel display caseback and black ceramic lumed bezel
  • Omega service 321 teardrop chrono hand
  • Generic 1861 baton and subdial hands - subdial hands had to be adjusted to fit
  • Omega 064PP2001002A 2020 dated stepped 321 service dial
  • Forstner fully brushed flat link with new toolless microadjust clasp
  • I also have the Radial Project Apollo 15 radial bezel as a spare to swap when the reflectivity of the ceramic in sunlight gets on my nerves - it doesn't really fit with the whole "daily-able 145.012" theme I was going for.

Absolutely over the moon (pun intended) with the work and nice that it came on the Apollo 11 splashdown anniversary as well!
 
Ron_W
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Nice work and done very fast.
I cant really see a step in the dial from this picture, is it as high a step as the old dials ? If you can make another pic that would be helpful.
 
Iggydang
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Ron_W Ron_W
Nice work and done very fast.
I cant really see a step in the dial from this picture, is it as high a step as the old dials ? If you can make another pic that would be helpful.
Hi Ron. The step is quite low and rather dependent on the light to show. Definitely not as obvious as the old dials, and can be easily confused for an earlier 2000s 064PP2001001A service dial without the step but with the normal curve at the edge.

Head-on in more diffuse lighting you can see a slight step where the shadow is (7-10 o' clock) but the rest of the dial looks quite flat:
IMG_4702.webp


If you turn the dial to the side slightly, the step is more obvious thanks to the sunlight causing a shadow at the edge of the step:
IMG_4701.webp


For anyone that's looking for a similar dial, I'd recommend finding a dial sealed in the original packaging with the correct part number or having an obvious picture showing the step. Funnily enough I paid less for this modern step dial compared to all other non-step 321 service dials I've seen advertised, so 🤷‍♂️
 
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