Vintage Watches : Service or Not ?

[alalalalongines]

If you are like me you will not stop with one connie. You may go a bit crazy and end up with 20+ vintage watches, some of them expensive, some of them far cheaper than a service.
Then why not go full on crazy like me:
I started servicing watches myself some months ago. I (successfully until now) serviced around 6 of the cheapest watches i have. Although getting all the equipment necessary wasn't cheap either, it was cheaper than getting them all serviced.

 

[bonzodog]

When I bought my 2639-13 last year I was told it had been serviced.Winding ,power reserve and time keeping were poor ,I decided to get it serviced.Turns out it had not been serviced for years,no oil where there should be and oil where there shouldn’t be.A service , replacement crown and stem it now runs strong about two seconds out over twenty four hours.If I’m still around it will be sent for another service in five years.

 

[Vintage Lemania]

RoadRunner73

Thanks to all of you Guys for these very valuable opinions ; my impression is that everybody sort of tends to hold a piece of truth ! I would quite agree with the fact that a rule should be found depending on age and value of watch ; I personnaly did not hesitate to put 600€ in a proper restoration of the movement of an odd but nice 19th century pocket watch, simply because it was my grand-father's !


On the other hand, the idea of sending my 1997 Tritium Moonwatch to service gives me a headache !


What if something happen to the hands during the disassembling ? I read many bad testimonials from people who got theirs back with "Service hands", or some of the Tritium had gone, and though it seems that it is not possible to get new Tritium hands, the only answer was : I'm sorry !
And even officially approved Omega watchmakers I've come across so far said they do not accept any liability in case of damage on the hands, repeating what Omega in Bienne says that Tritium hands are no longer valid, and would eventually be replaced by Luminova hands in case of damage : in the best case, it seems they would now agree to put them back broken... Pressure from Vintage Omega collectors I suppose ? That's at least what I managed to gather so far.

I had much of the same concern with my 1992 Ebel 1911 (with the El Primero movement). In 2021 I sent it for a service to Ebel as it was having some issues. They sent it directly to Switzerland and it came back with scratches on the dial and hands and most of the same issues I sent it in with. It's now getting a whole new dial and hand set to replace the original set they damaged (the originals are being returned to me). Has definitely put me off a bit more to servicing these older watches, or at least has made me research extensively before sending any away.

 

[Northernman]

RoadRunner73

Well Guys,
It's probably been discussed here already, but I am new on the Forum, and not yet very familiar with the searches so I haven't been successful in finding a topic on that so I'll give it a try now :
I'm still very new in the vintage watch things, and one of my main topics is whether vintage watches should undergo a regular (every 5-6 years ?) service or not ; I questioned many different specialists, read a lot, and it's still not clear to me;
My local watchmaker says that as long as a watch is working accurately, one should avoid unnecessary case openings and manipulations of the movement - parts - dial - hands, etc... in consideration of the potential risk of harming some parts; So does the watchmaker of one of the reputed Swiss watch brands whom I talked to recently, who says that as long as the watch is working properly, why should a service be made?

On the other hand, Desmond, well known for his passion for the Connies, has had a very straightforward position on that : high precision movement need to be cleaned, oiled, and of course regulated to guarantee a smooth functioning and avoid wear of some parts to affect other parts, and thus increase the amount of repairs. Another official watchmaker found on the OMEGA website, and who has restored a Chopard "Tank" recently considers that a service every 5-6 years on a mechanical movement is necessary ; of course, he's official, of course it's in his interest to lead people to spend money on watch services, but is that all ?

In the Industry where I have worked for nearly 40 years, it says that preventive maintenance is essential, as it will reduce the risk of unexpected failure ; I can very well understand that in a world that does not work together well with loss of production or of turnover, but what about watches ?

I can understand that dust, lack of proper lubrication may affect the performance of a watch, but why doing it if the watch is accurate ? My 25 years old Moonwatch for example, bought about 1 year ago, has probably never been serviced according to several "experts" who have checked it; it's been regulated though after I bought it, and accuracy rate is back from a past +50 sec/day to an approx. -2/+4 sec/day, closely followed-up now nearly every day since 4 months. And since it's got Tritium hands in pristine condition, I am very reluctant to have it serviced, for fear that something wrong might happen to them...

So where's the right way of acting ? What about the collectors, who own 10-20 or more vintage watches ?
And me projecting buying a 60 or 70 year old Connie : should I trust the guy claiming that the watch has been fully serviced, or should I rather look for a watch that hasn't been serviced for ages, and get a full service for the price difference ?

I know nothing about how to keep vintage watches in good conditions, so your opinions, pros/cons are highly welcome on this delicate topic !

Well thought questions starting collecting watches.
We all need to find our strategies as collectors.
My personal preferences are to divide watches into different categories.
a) Watches I will wear more or less regularly. Service every now and then (and always when I buy them).
b) Watches that is in working, but un-serviced condition, that I might wear very seldom. Kept un-serviced, and not worn our wound except for very special occasions.
c) Watches that is not working well. Either to be serviced when "their time come", or to be kept as a part of the collection for reference only (and not for wearing),

But I have one firm rule: I never wear (for any period) a watch with unknown service history. Mechanics needs lubrication, or they eat themselves up from friction and wear.
Finding spare parts for a vintage watch is getting harder and harder. Oils are still plentiful, and competent watchmakers are still around.

 

[Danwales]

Northernman

Well thought questions starting collecting watches.
We all need to find our strategies as collectors.
My personal preferences are to divide watches into different categories.
a) Watches I will wear more or less regularly. Service every now and then (and always when I buy them).
b) Watches that is in working, but un-serviced condition, that I might wear very seldom. Kept un-serviced, and not worn our wound except for very special occasions.
c) Watches that is not working well. Either to be serviced when "their time come", or to be kept as a part of the collection for reference only (and not for wearing),

But I have one firm rule: I never wear (for any period) a watch with unknown service history. Mechanics needs lubrication, or they eat themselves up from friction and wear.
Finding spare parts for a vintage watch is getting harder and harder. Oils are still plentiful, and competent watchmakers are still around.

I concur with this. I have a few watches that are probably around the £100

 

[Poppyboy]

When I first purchased my 166010, my watchmaker told me that since I had no service history, I should get it serviced if I have any plans to use it. Otherwise, he said just leave it in the box. He did a reasonable $300 service to give me a measure of confidence to use it.

 

[Poppyboy]

alalalalongines

If you are like me you will not stop with one connie. You may go a bit crazy and end up with 20+ vintage watches, some of them expensive, some of them far cheaper than a service.
Then why not go full on crazy like me:
I started servicing watches myself some months ago. I (successfully until now) serviced around 6 of the cheapest watches i have. Although getting all the equipment necessary wasn't cheap either, it was cheaper than getting them all serviced.

I often think about doing this, and the wonderful YouTube channels Wristwatch Revival and Red Dead Restoration psych me up, but it seems like an endless need for specialized tools (plus, training of course) to do it right.

 

[Tony C.]

I had a friend here in Portugal who was an internationally known vintage watch dealer, and had one of the most spectacular private collections in the world, particularly chronographs. Sadly, he died a couple of years ago. There would have been no realistic way for him to have had most, let alone all of his watches serviced regularly. But I can report that he was absolutely convinced of the value of winding them all, at least on occasion. In other words, he wasn't concerned about full services for those that were not being worn, or soon to be sold, but he definitely wasn't comfortable allowing them sit completely dormant for very long periods of time.

I believe that it was a sensible approach.

 

[Archer]

Tony C.

I had a friend here in Portugal who was an internationally known vintage watch dealer, and had one of the most spectacular private collections in the world, particularly chronographs. Sadly, he died a couple of years ago. There would have been no realistic way for him to have had most, let alone all of his watches serviced regularly. But I can report that he was absolutely convinced of the value of winding them all, at least on occasion. In other words, he wasn't concerned about full services for those that were not being worn, or soon to be sold, but he definitely wasn't comfortable allowing them sit completely dormant for very long periods of time.

I believe that it was a sensible approach.

There’s no reason to wind a watch periodically. It may feel like it’s doing something to preserve the movement, but it really isn’t.

 

[Tony C.]

Archer

There’s no reason to wind a watch periodically. It may feel like it’s doing something to preserve the movement, but it really isn’t.

It's not beneficial to distribute the lubricants occasionally?

 

[Dan S]

Tony C.

It's not beneficial to distribute the lubricants occasionally?

Don't most of the lubricants in watch movements sit in localized places?

 

[Archer]

Tony C.

It's not beneficial to distribute the lubricants occasionally?

Lubricants are not “distributed” inside watch movements. They are applied very precisely to specific locations, and great pains are taken to keep them to the very small area where they are applied.

Oils are formulated not to spread, movement parts receive chemical surface treatments to prevent oil spreading, and in jewels oils are held in place by capillary action.

There’s no benefit to winding a watch you aren’t going to use. It’s a myth I see stated very often on forums, but it has no technical basis.

Cheers, Al

 

[pdxleaf]

Archer

There’s no benefit to winding a watch you aren’t going to use. It’s a myth I see stated very often on forums, but it has no technical basis.

Cheers, Al

But it is fun

 

[Tony C.]

Archer

There’s no benefit to winding a watch you aren’t going to us. It’s a myth I see stated very often on forums, but it has no technical basis

Interesting. I have to say that I have had a few crowns seize up on watches that sat dormant for fairly long periods of time, but cannot recall having experienced it with those that were wound periodically. Just a coincidence?

 

[Archer]

Tony C.

Interesting. I have to say that I have had a few crowns seize up on watches that sat dormant for fairly long periods of time, but cannot recall having experienced it with those that were wound periodically. Just a coincidence?

What was the cause of the crowns seizing?

 

[Archer]

Archer

Lubricants are not “distributed” inside watch movements. They are applied very precisely to specific locations, and great pains are taken to keep them to the very small area where they are applied.

Oils are formulated not to spread, movement parts receive chemical surface treatments to prevent oil spreading, and in jewels oils are held in place by capillary action.

There’s no benefit to winding a watch you aren’t going to use. It’s a myth I see stated very often on forums, but it has no technical basis.

Cheers, Al

People do believe that winding a watch periodically is of some benefit to the life of the movement, because it "makes sense." People think of cars that are let sit, and degrade as they do so, but a watch is very different from a car. A watch doesn't have a gearbox with oil splashing around inside. It's one of this things that seems to make a lot of sense on the surface, but when you understand the role of lubricants and how they are applied, the idea falls apart very quickly.

To provide some illustration of what I'm referring to, here is a drawing showing a cross section of a pivot inside a jewel:



The oil is represented in blue. As you can see, it occupies the very narrow space between the steel pivot and the jewel. It stays there via capillary action until it dries up, or is removed during servicing. It doesn't need to be redistributed, because it was never distributed to begin with. If any oil is creeping around inside a watch, that means that far too much has been applied.

Cheers, Al

 

[size11s]

Thanks for the clear explanation Al. I know nothing of modern watch lubricants, is there anything in the discussion when considering the thicker lubricants/greases used within winding mechanisms? Cheers Mark

 

[Archer]

size11s

Thanks for the clear explanation Al. I know nothing of modern watch lubricants, is there anything in the discussion when considering the thicker lubricants/greases used within winding mechanisms? Cheers Mark

No. There are many different lubricants used when servicing a watch. On a typical watch movement, I will use between 4 and 7 different lubricants (off the top of my head), and these are formulated for specific uses, and have specific properties. For winding and setting parts, I typically use grease there - Moebius 9504. Since it's a grease, again it doesn't migrate away from where it should be - can't stress this point enough. There's something very wrong if lubrication is not staying where it was applied, no matter what the function is.

 

[pdxleaf]

Archer

No. There are many different lubricants used when servicing a watch. On a typical watch movement, I will use between 4 and 7 different lubricants (off the top of my head), and these are formulated for specific uses, and have specific properties. For winding and setting parts, I typically use grease there - Moebius 9504. Since it's a grease, again it doesn't migrate away from where it should be - can't stress this point enough. There's something very wrong if lubrication is not staying where it was applied, no matter what the function is.

While not disagreeing, here is my unscientific rationale for thinking there was some bennefit fron winding.

Knowing that lubricants will dry out over time, my thought was that moving the parts through the lubricant would 'stir' them or prolong their life, as opposed to allowing them to sit and 'coagulate'.

Given two jars of watch lubricant, would the being used/stirred last longer than one that is allowed to sit for five years?

Since watches generally require service every 5 years, is 5 years the theoretical limit of the life of a lubricant? Or is there any hope for the future development of 'super' lubricants that might extend the service life of a vintage watch?

Probably overly simplistic but this is limited knowledge

Thanks.

 

[Tony C.]

Archer

What was the cause of the crowns seizing?

I don't recall, in the case of those that were repaired. I appreciate your insights into the lubricants, and agree that the car analogy is likely influencing the perception that mechanical watches should be treated similarly. But it seems more than counter-intuitive to me that occasionally winding a watch that would otherwise sit dormant for years (or decades) wouldn't confer at least some advantages. Might the gears not benefit from an occasional re-positioning? The hands? The crown?

You mentioned grease, and I defer to your knowledge of such details, but doesn't it (like other oils) congeal when cooled to a certain degree? And if so, might watches kept in relatively cool storage not benefit from occasional winding?