"Verbal" agreements?

[watch_my_six]

I'm curious, what are folks' experiences/opinions regarding "verbal" agreements / agreements "in principle", i.e. after you have agreed on all of the terms of a transaction (price, shipping/insurance, returns/warranty, etc.), but no money nor watch has yet changed possession?

I just had a very sour experience with a seller in Europe who has his own website/business (I don't want to name names publicly, but feel free to DM me if you really want to ask) who essentially reneged on our agreement, because he said he "forgot he has another client coming to see the watch next week", and he "trusted that I would understand that he now favored this possible transaction" over ours, and after I told him that I was surprised that he seemed to be going against his word, and that I would still even be willing to adjust some of the terms of our agreement in his favor (because this was a vintage watch that I really wanted and apparently he wasn't happy with some of the terms he had agreed to), and that I hoped he would still honor our deal even though he had the upper hand, he then proceeded to chastise me for being "too intense". I've never felt so gaslit in a watch deal! lol

Perhaps I wouldn't have been surprised if this was a private seller on Chrono24, or if someone had purchased the watch through a web platform out from under me before I could, but alas, this was (allegedly) a professional who even told me when I asked (call me paranoid) that he would put the watch on hold for me while I arranged for my brother to see the watch in person and for me to send a deposit. Do Europeans have different understandings about "verbal" agreements? Do I have an unorthodox understanding? Has something like this happened to you? Have you done it to someone else?! I'm interested to hear about others' experiences/opinions. Cheers,

 

[Speed2Sea]

As Samuel Goldwyn once said "a verbal contract isn’t worth the paper it’s written on."

 

[Waltesefalcon]

A man is only as good as his word. I wouldn't want to deal with such a person and I'd say that you dodged a bullet when this deal fell through.

 

[drexl]

In Legalese ( thé language of thé law society) verbal contracts can be very binding. For instance: do you understand me can refer you as standing. under them, thus giving them authority. If you don't say; I comprehend

 

[dsio]

In the past we’ve had some collectors turned flippers turn car-boot watch dealers who would do that sort of thing constantly, both short-selling watches by making a deal to buy at a price off one person then trying to re-sell it at a higher price to another person, using the second persons money to buy the watch and taking a profit off the top, and people effectively holding silent auctions, making a commitment to sell for a price then asking around privately to try to sell at a higher price and reneging.

Several of those were banned for it as eventually those deals go bad and when they do, the guy doing it never does the right thing.

 

[drexl]

Verbal agreements still apply to landowners and those that farm thé land, here in Belgium. Tricky tot get around. While on topic of agreements: 80pc of communication is body language. Maybe we are all into watches. That's a non verbal agreement but it Can Say a lot

Edited: Sep 3, 2024

 

[Dan S]

Binding or not binding, attempting to enforce a contract like that is more trouble than it's worth.

BTW, it's interesting that you feel a professional dealer would be more likely to honor a verbal agreement than a private seller/collector. I would assume the opposite. For dealers, it's just business, and they're trying to squeeze every penny out of each watch. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if a dealer reneged on a deal even after you paid, if they hadn't yet shipped the watch. "Oops, I forgot that I had already promised this watch to someone else. Here's your refund."

 

[pdxleaf]

Edited: Sep 3, 2024

 

[watch_my_six]

Dan S

Binding or not binding, attempting to enforce a contract like that is more trouble than it's worth.

BTW, it's interesting that you feel a professional dealer would be more likely to honor a verbal agreement than a private seller/collector. I would assume the opposite. For dealers, it's just business, and they're trying to squeeze every penny out of each watch. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if a dealer reneged on a deal even after you paid, if they hadn't yet shipped the watch. "Oops, I forgot that I had already promised this watch to someone else. Here's your refund."

Re: enforcing, oh for sure! Re: dealers vs. private sellers, I see what you mean, and I would think that private sellers on a forum like OF would be more honorable. But on Chrono24, it seems like there is a higher level of "anonymity", and perhaps I'm naive in thinking that there are more dealers out there who still care about reputation.

 

[drexl]

Non verbal agreements happen all the time with language in use. Its called beating around thé bush but before you know you're interested in that 'bush'.
Like thé tramp with thé soupstone

 

[Fallout Boy]

watch_my_six

. Do Europeans have different understandings about "verbal" agreements?

It depends, where in Europe you want to make a deal.

 

[Davidt]

I wouldn’t lose sleep over it. If that’s the way they operate, then I’d rather not deal with them, regardless of the watch.

That said, as a seller once I get to the point where terms have been agreed, either verbally or via message with a buyer, as far as I’m concerned those terms are locked in and I stick to my word.
I sold a watch a few months ago on insta and terms were agreed with a buyer. While they took a few days to send payment a second person offered me £1000 more to sell to them instead. Of course I declined.

Firstly it’s the right thing to do, but also from a selfish perspective, if someone is willing to gazump the other buyer, I don’t believe they’d have any issue going back on their word with me.

It’ll be interesting if your ‘professional’ seller comes crawling back if their other buyer falls through.

 

[Mark020]

I had that with my house. Lowered my offer

 

[BAJJ]

I would say that a verbal agreement should hold, he’s clearly a man without morals, I wouldn’t sweat it, it’s not worth getting upset over, his loss. I believe in karma, he will get his in the future, the wheel always comes back around

 

[Bernhard J]

What agreement? You wrote that your brother would arrange to come by and look at the watch in person. So there was no concluded agreement, because you surely would have had to option to withdraw (?) Why should someone have a look at the watch in person, if you had concludind a binding sales contract (written or verbally). A "letter of intent" is, by the way, worth absolutely nothing under European legislation.

If I were a seller and a buyer would tell me that someone would (might?) drop by in a week or so to have a look at a watch, I would prefer any person, who drops by and BUYS in person in the meanwhile.

P.S.: I personally have experienced several time, that a (prospective) buyer asked for my bank account details for payment of what was agreed on (!). Nothing happened though. Now I ask for Paypal payment and as long as the prospective buyer does not pay, nothing is reserved.

Edited: Sep 4, 2024

 

[drexl]

Bernhard J

What agreement? You wrote that your brother would arrange to come by and look at the watch in person. So there was no concluded agreement, because you surely would have had to option to withdraw (?) Why should someone have a look at the watch in person, if you had concludind a binding sales contract (written or verbally). A "letter of intent" is, by the way, worth absolutely nothing under European legislation.

If I were a seller and a buyer would tell me that someone would (might?) drop by in a week or so to have a look at a watch, I would prefer any person, who drops by and BUYS in person in the meanwhile.

It does depend who you might be selling to ie: if a mates brother is coming for a but chers...changes moneyissues, at least that's my opinion

 

[Bernhard J]

Well, the transaction in question appears to have been troubled anyway, just think about all the "terms" and "term adjustments" (what might they have been?). The seller might just as well be regarded as rather patient as long as we do not hear the other side ...

When I (European) bought my Elgin Veritas in the USA, we had a few emails back and forth (mainly with respect to the provenience, see elsewhere here), then I paid the full amount, and finally he sent the watch. That was it. No specific "terms", no prior inspections through third parties, etc.

 

[Dan S]

Bernhard J

What agreement? You wrote that your brother would arrange to come by and look at the watch in person. So there was no concluded agreement, because you surely would have had to option to withdraw (?) Why should someone have a look at the watch in person, if you had concludind a binding sales contract (written or verbally). A "letter of intent" is, by the way, worth absolutely nothing under European legislation.

If I were a seller and a buyer would tell me that someone would (might?) drop by in a week or so to have a look at a watch, I would prefer any person, who drops by and BUYS in person in the meanwhile.

P.S.: I personally have experienced several time, that a (prospective) buyer asked for my bank account details for payment of what was agreed on (!). Nothing happened though. Now I ask for Paypal payment and as long as the prospective buyer does not pay, nothing is reserved.

After reading the OP more carefully, I have to agree that the seller may not have interpreted the deal as being concluded. We don't know both sides of the story. If someone is still kicking the tires, then someone else can come in with cash and that's the way it goes. You snooze, you lose.

 

[Davidt]

I must not have read the full OP as I agree on a re-read it does sound open to interpretation. I wouldn’t consider someone arranging a viewing as an agreed deal.

That said, if the seller agreed to putting the watch on hold pending a viewing, that should’ve been adhered to. The seller would have been perfectly within their rights not to agree to this, but if they have, they should stick to it.

Edited: Sep 4, 2024

 

[drexl]

Dan S

After reading the OP more carefully, I have to agree that the seller may not have interpreted the deal as being concluded. We don't know both sides of the story. If someone is still kicking the tires, then someone else can come in with cash and that's the way it goes. You snooze, you lose.

If I really want something I pay a downpayment. If It turns out iffy: I get my money back. That way it's reserved. Doesnt work on eBay but locally it does. I once got advice: if you see a Lister for sale; don't ask questions, just buy it

Edited: Sep 4, 2024