Unknown Verge Fusee

me1969 · May 25, 2021

Hello all, I wanted to get some opinions on this watch I picked up today.
There is paper on the inside of the case that says "R. Blakelay Silversmith Clock Watch Maker" but I can't seem to find any information on that maker.
The movement is marked "D Edmonds London" and then either 868 or 898 (depending on how you hold it)
The hallmarks inside the case are also unfamiliar to me.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you

Evitzee · May 25, 2021

The paper inside the case is not the maker, these were often inserted after a service. The maker is that on the movement, the hallmarks will tell you the exact year it was made. I don't have access to my English hallmark book so can't give you any information in that regard. From the look of the movement it is probably in the 1750-75 range.

me1969 · May 25, 2021

Evitzee
The paper inside the case is not the maker, these were often inserted after a service. The maker is that on the movement, the hallmarks will tell you the exact year it was made. I don't have access to my English hallmark book so can't give you any information in that regard. From the look of the movement it is probably in the 1750-75 range.

Thank you. Would you recommend attempting to take the paper out? Is it possible that there would be another hallmark or date under there?

Waltesefalcon · May 25, 2021

The hallmarks you can see on the inner case are all you need to date it. I believe you can find everything you need on English hallmarks on this site: https://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html

me1969 · May 31, 2021

Waltesefalcon
The hallmarks you can see on the inner case are all you need to date it. I believe you can find everything you need on English hallmarks on this site: https://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html

I used a pair of plastic-tipped tweezers to very carefully remove the three pieces of paper and a single piece of silk from inside the watch case.
They are fascinating to look at.... one is an advertisement for Daniel Oyster clock & watchmaker, Reading (most of the research I've done says he was from Reading, Pa but one I read stated he was from Reading, Mass)
He was born in 1766 and became a watchmaker in 1792.
Another of the pieces of paper is the date August 23, 1820.
The third piece of paper has a name and some numbers but I can't make them out.
It's incredible to think that this watch and these pieces of paper have been in existence for over 200 years. Imagining the number of hands this piece must have passed through in its lifetime is fascinating to me.

Canuck · May 31, 2021

The way I interpret the hallmark and date letter seems to indicate London, 1794-95. The case makers trademark A M could be Angela Marson, Butchers Close Moorfields who was operating around that time. The name Edmonds, London, engraved on the movement, unfortunately has an initial I am unable to interpret. But it could be Jacob, John, or Charles Edmonds who operated in London in the last quarter of the 18th century. Our English brethren have a much better aptitude when it comes to interpreting case marks from English cases. However, dates on the case papers seem to be consistent with a late 18th century hallmark.

It would appear that this watch has a pair case. If so, and if the outer case exists, it might be interesting to compare the internal case stamps within both inner and outer case.

me1969 · May 31, 2021

Canuck
The way I interpret the hallmark and date letter seems to indicate London, 1794-95. The case makers trademark A M could be Angela Marson, Butchers Close Moorfields who was operating around that time. The name Edmonds, London, engraved on the movement, unfortunately has an initial I am unable to interpret. But it could be Jacob, John, or Charles Edmonds who operated in London in the last quarter of the 18th century. Our English brethren have a much better aptitude when it comes to interpreting case marks from English cases. However, dates on the case papers seem to be consistent with a late 18th century hallmark.

It would appear that this watch has a pair case. If so, and if the outer case exists, it might be interesting to compare the internal case stamps within both inner and outer case.

I'm not sure what a "pair case" is. Everything I have was included in the pictures so if a pair case isn't something in the pictures then I'm afraid it's been lost in time, unfortunately.

JimInOz · May 31, 2021

Nice watch. I'm researching a similar one and here are your hallmarks explained.

I can't find the maker "A.M" yet.

me1969 · May 31, 2021

JimInOz
Nice watch. I'm researching a similar one and here are your hallmarks explained.

I can't find the maker "A.M" yet.

That's awesome, thank you!! These watches are truly incredible pieces of history. I love finding them unexpectedly while hitting garage sales 😀

Evitzee · May 31, 2021

me1969
I'm not sure what a "pair case" is. Everything I have was included in the pictures so if a pair case isn't something in the pictures then I'm afraid it's been lost in time, unfortunately.

Your watch is the inner case, there was originally an outer case to protect the inner case because the winding hole and/or hand setting hole was susceptible to dust and dirt. The outer case protected the inner case and provided some protection to dust and dirt, and they were often embellished with engravings for a decorative effect. Back in the day watches like this were an expensive luxury, often in gold. They were worn by upper class gents, portable timekeepers were still a novelty and only the well to do could afford a watch. Too bad the outer case is lost to history.

me1969 · May 31, 2021

Evitzee
Your watch is the inner case, there was originally an outer case to protect the inner case because the winding hole and/or hand setting hole was susceptible to dust and dirt. The outer case protected the inner case and provided some protection to dust and dirt, and they were often embellished with engravings for a decorative effect. Too bad it is lost to history.

OH!! Yes, mine does have that pair case. I'd never heard that term before, thank you for the education 😀
I primarily collect vintage wristwatches and don't have much experience with pocket watches, particularly ones this old but I love learning about them.

me1969 · May 31, 2021

The pair case is what the papers were tucked into.

JimInOz · May 31, 2021

I'm fairly sure that the OP has a pair case watch from the pictures.

Edit: Already answered.

I figured it was a pair case due to the papers/silk being in the back. If it was a single case there would be no way to wind/set it through the papers/silk.

Evitzee · May 31, 2021

me1969
OH!! Yes, mine does have that pair case. I'd never heard that term before, thank you for the education 😀
I primarily collect vintage wristwatches and don't have much experience with pocket watches, particularly ones this old but I love learning about them.

Is the outer case smooth, or does it have some engraving or scrolling decorative work? From your pics it looks like it may be a basic watch in silver.

me1969 · Jun 1, 2021

Evitzee
Is the outer case smooth, or does it have some engraving or scrolling decorative work? From your pics it looks like it may be a basic watch in silver.

It's smooth, I believe it is simply silver with no ornamental engraving.
I know that with some items (furniture, etc...) restoring/cleaning is not recommended. Is that the case with a watch like this? I'd like to clean the silver case but I don't want to hurt its value.

JimInOz · Jun 1, 2021

A gentle wipe with a silver cleaning cloth on the exterior of the cases won't hurt value.

Hitting it with jewellers rouge and a polishing wheel will.

You could try this, or something similar but ensure that it's not abrasive.

me1969 · Jun 1, 2021

JimInOz
A gentle wipe with a silver cleaning cloth on the exterior of the cases won't hurt value.

Hitting it with jewellers rouge and a polishing wheel will.

You could try this, or something similar but ensure that it's not abrasive.

Thanks. I was thinking of some silver polish. I don't wear jewelry so I've never had to clean any but I remember seeing commercials for a liquid silver cleaner that you simply submerged the silver in and when you took it out the item was free of tarnish.
But the wipes you suggested seem pretty straightforward too, I may try them.

JimInOz · Jun 1, 2021

Dipping a watch case in a solution may make it sparkle, but what about all of the solution that will seep into crack/crevices/hinges?

I would stick with the cloth.

me1969 · Jun 1, 2021

JimInOz
Dipping a watch case in a solution may make it sparkle, but what about all of the solution that will seep into crack/crevices/hinges?

I would stick with the cloth.

Good point.

SkunkPrince · Jun 1, 2021

3M Tarnishield is used by wind instrument repair technicians, and might work out if the case can be separated from the movement. It is water soluable and plenty of these technicians dilute it. I've polished my silver-plated trumpet with a new, clean, white towel and diluted Tarnishield.

So it might be worth considering.

Unknown Verge Fusee

me1969

Evitzee

me1969

Waltesefalcon

me1969

Canuck

me1969

JimInOz

me1969

Evitzee

me1969

me1969

JimInOz

Evitzee

me1969

JimInOz

me1969

JimInOz

me1969

SkunkPrince

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