Community Stories

Thoughts on this very clean 105.012 Speedmaster

jolyon
Posts
94
Likes
40
Dan S Dan S
Be careful. IMO, that's not a reasonable stance for a serious seller who actually has the watch in his possession. So make sure it's not a scam and that he actually has the watch.



What does "in order" mean? You don't know what year it is, so you don't know if the single step case-back is right, you have no idea about the serial number. It sounds like he thinks he has something that is much better than it really is and I expect that his asking price is ridiculous. Bezel, hands, and pushers alone will set you back a lot to make it right.

You can't really judge condition accurately with the plastic. Well anyway, if you see it in person without the plastic and you don't like it, you can always walk away.
I’m working on the expectation it’s a 66 HF, with serial number range between 2453 xxxx and 2544 xxxx. That’s what it should be when I open it up so it matches the lack of facet on the lugs and the single step caseback. Would you say that’s a reasonable conclusion?
By ‘in order’ it should have a stamp on the caseback for 105.012-66 HF and serial number in that range.
 
jolyon
Posts
94
Likes
40
SOG53 SOG53
My first response outlines issues. If all those items are replaced you don’t have much of what makes the watch special and valuable.
Are you familiar with difference between CB and HF case? You dont need to see inside for that.
Do you know serial number ranges for various reference numbers you may see inside Caseback? That’s impt to know if it’s franken
Will you be able to assess appearance of movement?
You need to be facile with these issues before buying a Speedmaster.
You can post photos here before buying, but being pushed into buying because seller is opening case is ridiculous
So that’s why my spidey sense says no

Patience is key, buying a poor example because you have been looking for a while for a nice example is usually disappointing.
I think it’s a 66 HF because no facet visible on the lugs and single step caseback. So I expect serial range to be 2453 xxxx to 2544 xxxx otherwise I walk away.

Although I agree the pushers, crown, bezel, hands and bracelet are valuable, I still put a lot of value on the dial, movement and case. I haven’t seen the movement yet, but the case and dial look really good to me. That’s where I would absolutely like advice on whether people think the yellow lume plots are original tritium and what you think about the finishing of the case.
 
hansaboy
Posts
2,600
Likes
5,759
Hi there!
I am trying to understand your thoughts and also why you are "going" after this one...?
How do you know it is a 105.012-66, and why not a 145.012-67/68?
You like the dial, but how can you assess the quality with those pictures?

And if the seller has had the watch serviced, are there not any invoices or info regarding the serial nr?
I have learned that Japan is a huge market for vintage watches,
and that there are opportunities to find nice ones for a reasonable (cheep) pricetag,
so this one must be very very very reasonable....?

I'm not trying to be a grumpy old man, but I have a hard time understanding this...
😁
 
Vinz Clortho
Posts
709
Likes
1,932
Along with everything else, the bezel is also off center and would need to be reinstalled. Personally, there are better versions to be found probably for around the same price. You might looking at it as a good price for a vintage Speedmaster, but sometimes it's worth passing on one to find the one you really want.
 
jolyon
Posts
94
Likes
40
hansaboy hansaboy
Hi there!
I am trying to understand your thoughts and also why you are "going" after this one...?
How do you know it is a 105.012-66, and why not a 145.012-67/68?
You like the dial, but how can you assess the quality with those pictures?

And if the seller has had the watch serviced, are there not any invoices or info regarding the serial nr?
I have learned that Japan is a huge market for vintage watches,
and that there are opportunities to find nice ones for a reasonable (cheep) pricetag,
so this one must be very very very reasonable....?

I'm not trying to be a grumpy old man, but I have a hard time understanding this...
😁
Hey don’t worry, I am a grumpy old man already!
Good questions and thanks for joining the discussion.

So, firstly the seller assures me it is a 105.012 and guarantees that if I open it up and it’s anything else, the sale is off. So I’m working under that guarantee. And based off of that, I’m assuming it’s a 66 HF due to the lugs and caseback with a serial number between 2453 xxxx to 2544 xxxx - if I open it up and see anything other than this, I will walk away, telling the seller the watch has been messed with and isn’t an original 105.012.

There are invoices, but I facepalmed when I saw them.. whoever did the service doesn’t know much about vintage speedmasters because they marked it as having no serial number and told the seller that ‘these old ones don’t have a serial’. Needless to say, if I open it up and the serial number is actually missing, I am out the door, but I expect the service man just doesn’t know vintage speedmasters. I would post it but it’s all in hand written Japanese so I doubt many members of this group will be able to read it anyway.

As for why this one - well, I’m honestly not looking for a museum piece because then I would be scared of wearing it and ruining it! I don’t want to spend money on a flat link bracelet and original DON bezel just to take them off and put them in a cupboard while I wear the watch with a practical strap and aftermarket bezel I’m not afraid of damaging. So this is actually ideal in that regard, since it’s priced to accept those are missing. What I do care about is the aesthetic of the dial and case. I hate flaws on vintage dials like marks, scratches, stains and discolouration. And I also don’t like ugly lume plots. I have always loved the examples with amber coloured tritium but those are often well into the £12k+ figures. Similarly, I hate cases that have been polished to oblivion, losing their form. This one has a seriously nice looking dial (to me) and the cleanest vintage case I’ve ever seen. So it does away with the parts I don’t care about but has great examples of the parts I do care about! I would love to wear this on a honey coloured leather NATO strap that matches the tritium, and to put on an aftermarket DON from spiral winder or similar - that would be a dream daily. The story of it being the actual moon watch reference is awesome and aesthetically it looks well cared for. That’s why I like it! BUT, I don’t want to buy something emotionally and not be able to sell it if I need to get the money back later due to unforgivable things like non original dial lume or something with the case that is just wrong or badly messed with. so I guess what I’m looking for is pointers from collectors on whether the dial and case are as good as I think they are, or if I’m being emotionally swept away. I don’t really care about service hands, pushers and crown but I do care about the purity of the dial and case.
 
jolyon
Posts
94
Likes
40
Vinz Clortho Vinz Clortho
Along with everything else, the bezel is also off center and would need to be reinstalled. Personally, there are better versions to be found probably for around the same price. You might looking at it as a good price for a vintage Speedmaster, but sometimes it's worth passing on one to find the one you really want.
That’s ok! The bezel would be coming off anyway and being replaced with an aftermarket DON. I don’t want to waste money on buying one with a lovely original bezel only to take it off and put it in a drawer because I’m scared of damaging it. This is a part I actually want to save money on since I won’t use. The price does take into consideration the original parts that are missing. But what I do care about is the purity of the case (not crown and pushers, I don’t care about them) and dial. Do you have any thoughts on those? I would be buying on the assumption that the dial and case are as pure as they seem.
 
jolyon
Posts
94
Likes
40
hansaboy hansaboy
Well...thanks for sharing your thoughts!
But again - how can you assess the dial? Those pictures you showed are impossible...
There could be lot of faults there?
And a 66 is not really the "actual moon watch"...😉

https://www.chronoholic.com/post/a-...dmaster-professional-105-012-65-the-moonwatch
Ah you’ve got me there! Wrong year for the true moon watch reference! Still close enough for me though!!
What kind of photos would you need to give an honest evaluation of the dial and case? I want to make sure this is a true ‘pumpkin dial’ example without faults to the dial and also that the case is either unpolished or properly polished in a way that maintains desirability.
 
hansaboy
Posts
2,600
Likes
5,759
jolyon jolyon
He has had this thing for sale for 3 years+
And I do think you have the time to read/study about the reference....😁
 
watch_my_six
Posts
578
Likes
736
jolyon jolyon
Ah you’ve got me there! Wrong year for the true moon watch reference! Still close enough for me though!!
What kind of photos would you need to give an honest evaluation of the dial and case? I want to make sure this is a true ‘pumpkin dial’ example without faults to the dial and also that the case is either unpolished or properly polished in a way that maintains desirability.
I was going to say the same thing about the -66 vs. -65 ; )

Also, isn't it not reassuring that someone worked on the movement who as you say doesn't know much about vintage Speedmasters?!

And since you mention you wouldn't want to get something you wouldn't be able to resell, the signals coming from the members of this community (who would be as good a set of candidate buyers as any) seem to be indicating that you would have a hard time selling it to them/us! (Although there are still varied opinions among us, for example, I am actually more OK with a "properly" relumed dial eg by Horoluma with everything else correct vs. an original dial with more imperfections and an incorrect bezel/hands/pushers/crown/etc).
 
Aludic
Posts
1,503
Likes
6,566
Let me start by saying that I applaud to the enthusiasm you show in this conversion, you're clearly looking for advice and putting the leg work in to get it. That said, forgive me for being blunt (in my admittedly weak defence, I'm Dutch and we're known for our directness); please also take the advice you're given.

This watch consists mostly of service parts (bezel, crown, pushers and hands) which doesn't bode well for any of the other parts. Probably one of the reasons this seller isn't getting rid of this piece. Add to that the impossibility of assessing it at all, answering your question here is neigh on impossible.

jolyon jolyon
That’s where I would absolutely like advice on whether people think the yellow lume plots are original tritium and what you think about the finishing of the case.

In short here's my advice; walk away from this watch and continue your search. You'll thank me and the others in this thread for doing so as soon as you've landed a much nicer specimen on your wrist. 😀
 
watch_my_six
Posts
578
Likes
736
PS it looks like much of the debris in the dial photos could very well be on the dial itself and not just on the crystal, which would be a definite deal breaker for me (even if you think the lume is nice), unless the seller would let you pop the movement and dial out and use an air blower to see how much comes off of the dial lol.
 
watch_my_six
Posts
578
Likes
736
Vinz Clortho Vinz Clortho
Along with everything else, the bezel is also off center and would need to be reinstalled. Personally, there are better versions to be found probably for around the same price. You might looking at it as a good price for a vintage Speedmaster, but sometimes it's worth passing on one to find the one you really want.
How about this fine example of a 145.012-67 for $9k from @Spacefruit? https://speedmastersales.com/26071544-2/
1782893872887.webp
 
jolyon
Posts
94
Likes
40
Ok, I have been thinking about all the comments and advice (thank you very much by the way). The concensus seems to be that from the photos and lack of information, I should walk away. But I don’t give up easily, especially when I’m interested in something! So here’s what I will do.. I am going to travel to visit the seller and see the piece in a week’s time. It’s a scenic part of Japan and I will ride my motorcycle there, so not a wasted day! I am going to take that damn plastic wrap off and get a good close look at the watch, take lots of photos and video, and I will see if I can persuade the seller to let me open it up. This way I can actually check the dial and case and movement condition and verify the caseback markings. I will report back with more media in a week! Thanks to everyone who offered their advice!
 
YY77
Posts
6,219
Likes
30,322
jolyon jolyon
I am going to travel to visit the seller and see the piece in a week’s time.
Even when this has already been established from the pics 🤔:
Aludic Aludic
This watch consists mostly of service parts (bezel, crown, pushers and hands)
 
Fallout Boy
Posts
3,003
Likes
6,260
Having to look at the mismatched hands (lume) is like the wart on the other person's face: you actually don't want to look - but you do. 😬
Life will turn cruel if you buy this one.
 
jolyon
Posts
94
Likes
40
YY77 YY77
Even when this has already been established from the pics 🤔:
For the price the seller is asking I don’t mind as long as the dial, case and movement are great.
 
jolyon
Posts
94
Likes
40
Fallout Boy Fallout Boy
Having to look at the mismatched hands (lume) is like the wart on the other person's face: you actually don't want to look - but you do. 😬
Life will turn cruel if you buy this one.
I would probably get the hands relumed more closely to match. A friend of mine runs a lume workshop in La Chaux de Fonds so I’m sure he can set it right and it wouldn’t be such a huge expense.
 
17 More Posts...
Sign up or log in to reply...

Similar threads

maxbelg

Omega 086ST0022 Service Pushers for 105.012 Speedmaster

maxbelg Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
cristos71
cristos71
Posts
5
Views
552
cjbruin

Thoughts on this vintage Omega?

cjbruin Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
cjbruin
cjbruin
Posts
17
Views
1K
BenSimon

Omega Speedmaster 105.012-64 HF: Advice request !

BenSimon Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
chrisinohio
chrisinohio
Posts
8
Views
305
M

Thoughts on this Constellation 168.005

MightyMido Open Discussion
M
MightyMido
Posts
8
Views
177
mpv22

Inherited Speedmaster 105.012 Cal. 321 Restoration Advice

mpv22 Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
Alex Cheers
Alex Cheers
Posts
53
Views
1K
pitbos

Omega Speedmaster 105.012-66 CB: Worth the Risk?

pitbos Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
masteroftime
masteroftime
Posts
20
Views
674