This really pisses me off! Swatch Group cuts parts supplies to external distributors (UK).

Archer · May 14, 2014

jakeh417
this has got to be the defining moment where watchmakers actually say enough is enough and do more than just sit idle.

Scary times ahead.

Watchmakers have already tried to solve this several times, and little gets accomplished. It's really not up to watchmakers to solve this, as we are so small in numbers and influence that we aren't listened to even when we have made waves in the courts or with governments.

Unless consumers get behind some action to stop this, it won't matter one bit what watchmakers do.

As I mentioned, the average watch buyer likely has no clue about this issue, and even many enthusiasts don't know or don't care. When parts accounts were taken away from watchmakers in Australia, "Save the Time" was launched, PR campaigns were under way, petitions were signed, and I think the end result was that nothing was accomplished. The web site doesn't even appear to exist anymore.

The mainstream watch media is far too afraid of this issue, because if they start publishing articles on this in major magazines or web sites, criticizing the watch companies, they will loose access to industry for interviews, watches for testing, etc.

Consumers have the dollars, and hold all the power.

Cheers, Al

jakeh417 · May 14, 2014

Archer
Watchmakers have already tried to solve this several times, and little gets accomplished. It's really not up to watchmakers to solve this, as we are so small in numbers and influence that we aren't listened to even when we have made waves in the courts or with governments.

Unless consumers get behind some action to stop this, it won't matter one bit what watchmakers do.

As I mentioned, the average watch buyer likely has no clue about this issue, and even many enthusiasts don't know or don't care. When parts accounts were taken away from watchmakers in Australia, "Save the Time" was launched, PR campaigns were under way, petitions were signed, and I think the end result was that nothing was accomplished. The web site doesn't even appear to exist anymore.

The mainstream watch media is far too afraid of this issue, because if they start publishing articles on this in major magazines or web sites, criticizing the watch companies, they will loose access to industry for interviews, watches for testing, etc.

Consumers have the dollars, and hold all the power.

Cheers, Al

I agree. When I mentioned watchmakers, I was thinking in my head that they would have to do something extreme, but the more I thought about what I said, the more I realized there is nothing they can do. Ultimately, consumers would have to push for change.

But if some of the people I know are any indication, the watch companies know exactly how much they can push. My friends are casual watch buyers, meaning they just buy because it looks good, and they heard the name is good. They dont care or think about maintenance, they probably treat their watch like their cars, it's something to show off. I even had one friend argue, why would he even think about bringing his watch anywhere else besides the watch company for service or anything.

The more I think about it, the more I really feel for the independent watchmakers. I honestly dont know what will happen. As a hobbyist, it will get even more expensive, or being push to deal with just really old vintage watches...

gatorcpa · May 14, 2014

Archer
The mainstream watch media is far too afraid of this issue, because if they start publishing articles on this in major magazines or web sites, criticizing the watch companies, they will loose access to industry for interviews, watches for testing, etc.

How about something of far more importance to the magazines, like advertising revenue? That's the major self-censoring factor for all media, really.

Archer
Consumers have the dollars, and hold all the power.

Dollars? Yes. Power? No. So long as the manufacturers have the power to control distribution channels (at least in the USA), it is highly unlikely that manufacturers will give in to any consumer or middle-man pressure to open markets for parts or service. It makes no economic sense to the factories to sell to middle-men, due to the cost to produce and distribute parts nationally.

Unless the watch business is forced to adopt a model like the automobile business, where auto manufacturers are barred by law (see Tesla's battle with New Jersey) from owning dealers, consumers have zero ability to change the situation. These laws were put into place during the Great Depression of the 1930's to protect the interests of the dealers from being squeezed out at a time when very few cars were being sold. These same laws also served the dealers well when the manufacturers tried to yank the franchises of many during the recession of the late 2000's.

Remember that with cars, the only reason parts are avaliable to the public at all, is that manufacturers are required to sell to these independent dealers. The dealers may sell on to whomever they choose, whether independent mechanic, auto parts store or end user. Without such legislation, the manufacturers could stop producing spare parts whenever they change models or when profit margins on part sales got too low. Used cars would then have almost zero value, since even the dealers couldn't get parts at that point. Where do auto dealers make the most money? Used cars and service, that's where.

Unless we went back to old days, when the AD also provided most of the servicing for watches, there is no financial incentive for the watch companies to sell parts to their dealers or parts suppliers. Particularly when the companies own most of the dealers.

If by some miracle, legislation opening up the trade in watch parts were passed, then the Swiss would simply pack up their boutiques and go home.
gatorcpa

Archer · May 14, 2014

The ad revenue for magazines is obvious, so I didn't mention it. In fact I have no expectation that magazines like Watchtime for example would ever take up this issue, so in this regard they are pretty much irrelevant. Like a lot of automotive "journalism" they are in many ways really just paid advertisers for the brands.

For blogs, a place where this issue could actually get some traction, the issue is more related to the access to watches and people holding them back. In either case the companies have the leverage.

Consumers absolutely have the power. Both through voting with their wallets, and also being the primary entity that would lobby the government, or take legal action. It would need a well organized and concerted effort, but being the largest possible group affected by these restrictions, they are the only group that could bring this forward and make change. The reality is no one in government in the US (where this would have the best chance of being resolved) is terribly concerned about a group of relatively wealthy individuals who can't get their expensive watches fixed at the place of their choice, especially when they aren't really complaining.

Class action suits have already been fought over this (Fleury v. Cartier), and settled, and the consumer class is the only one that received financial compensation. Unfortunately the people representing the watchmaker class agreed to a settlement that basically did not change anything - I think 9 parts accounts were granted as a result of the settlement, which allowed the companies to place extremely onerous requirements on those applying for an account.

I actually think the EU is the place where this has the best chances of being resolved.

Cheers, Al

gatorcpa · May 14, 2014

Archer
The ad revenue for magazines is obvious, so I didn't mention it.

OK, so I'm Master of the Obvious. Been guilty of that before!😉

Archer
Consumers absolutely have the power. Both through voting with their wallets, and also being the primary entity that would lobby the government, or take legal action. It would need a well organized and concerted effort, but being the largest possible group affected by these restrictions, they are the only group that could bring this forward and make change.

I think you way overestimate the power of the consumer in this instance. Could it happen in theory? Yes. Will it happen? No. Particularly since the number of vintage watch parts buyers that are really being hurt here are in the hundreds, even including certified watchmakers such as yourself.

Archer
I actually think the EU is the place where this has the best chances of being resolved.

On this, we agree. The current US administration has no interest in consumer protection legislation at all. These are the guys that have brought back "fair trade" pricing for consumer products, which allow manufacturers to set price floors, rather than allowing the marketplace to self-regulate.

Another discussion for another day.
gatorcpa

Archer · May 14, 2014

I think our "disagreement" is mostly semantics. Certainly if it can happen "in theory" then they must have the power. I completely agree that it will never happen, but it's not because they don't have the power. It's there, but consumers have to choose to use it.

I have seen several discussions on parts restrictions come up on various forums, and the feeling that what these companies are doing is "wrong" is certainly not universal, even among collectors and enthusiasts. I have seen people make completely ridiculous arguments on this - one person said over and over that the only reason independent watchmakers are upset is that they want to be able to buy parts and mark them up more than the companies do. Uh yeah that's right. Forget that without parts I can't even start to make living at this, and yes it's all about the mark up. Oy!

Cheers, Al

gatorcpa · May 14, 2014

Archer
I have seen people make completely ridiculous arguments on this - one person said over and over that the only reason independent watchmakers are upset is that they want to be able to buy parts and mark them up more than the companies do.

Um yeah, that's a good one. 😜

That's like saying I'm in business for all the referral fees I collect.

Not to mention that if I accept fees for referrals, I can lose my license to practice.
gatorcpa

Archer · May 15, 2014

Just an update...

I am hearing through a watchmaker's group I am a member of that this new policy is world wide for all material wholesale suppliers, so one other has confirmed this restriction will apply to them (Ernst Westphal in Germany).

He actually mentioned that Otto Frei has confirmed this also. Not exactly first hand information, so take it cautiously, but this has far reaching implications.

Buy up the stock you need while you can guys!

Privateday7 · May 15, 2014

Archer
Just an update...

I am hearing through a watchmaker's group I am a member of that this new policy is world wide for all material wholesale suppliers, so one other has confirmed this restriction will apply to them (Ernst Westphal in Germany).

He actually mentioned that Otto Frei has confirmed this also. Not exactly first hand information, so take it cautiously, but this has far reaching implications.

Buy up the stock you need while you can guys!

Uh oh...............

jakeh417 · May 15, 2014

Archer
Just an update...

I am hearing through a watchmaker's group I am a member of that this new policy is world wide for all material wholesale suppliers, so one other has confirmed this restriction will apply to them (Ernst Westphal in Germany).

He actually mentioned that Otto Frei has confirmed this also. Not exactly first hand information, so take it cautiously, but this has far reaching implications.

Buy up the stock you need while you can guys!

WOW just wow I also read that they are re-evaluating Swatch training for watchmakers. Thanks for the update Al, there will be a buying frenzy now......

edit: My assumption, big assumption, is that this will probably lead to cancellation of Omega parts accounts?

edit 2: No idea what happened here, mess up the entire message. I cleaned it up to make sense.

MSNWatch · May 15, 2014

It looks like the day I feared would come is right around the corner. I have been accumulating watch parts for about 5 years now in anticipation of this and I hope it will be enough.

Stewart H · May 15, 2014

I can't help thinking of Hayek sitting there, stroking a white cat. Perhaps one of you Photoshop experts will indulge me.

msp1518 · May 15, 2014

This is really stunning news. While 99% of the watch buyers out there won't care, anyone interested in vintage pieces or supporting independent watchmakers is going to take it in the rear. I imagine as word spreads a lot of people are going to start buying anything they can get their hands on. There will likely be a skyrocketing gray market on the horizon.

This really sucks.

Habitant · May 16, 2014

To recap: Swatch Group say they will stop supplying spare parts for their brands to watchmakers and material houses outside their own company as from December 2015.

This implies that Omega account watchmakers, such as our good friend Archer, and his non-account colleagues, will only be able to facilitate repairs that do not require parts (more or less and aside from generic OEM substitutes). This would therefore require owners of vintage watches needing parts to return them to official Swatch repair facilities, which is very bad news for watchmakers and enthusiasts alike, for reasons I believe have been previously well noted on this Forum.

My own friendly watchmaker services around 30 Swatch Group products (a conservative minimum) a week. If we then assume that there are another 40 watchmakers spread through the UK doing something like this volume, that means that there would be some 1 200 watches sent to Omega from the UK alone. A week! By the way, do we multiply this by 5 for the USA?

Anyway, let’s then say that there are 20 countries worldwide similarly affected, and let’s assume a much lower average, say 1,000/country/annum. These numbers are just wild guesses, but in the absence of concrete ones, let’s play with them for now, for the root question at the bottom of this dialogue is…

Can Swatch Group really manage to service 20 000 watches a year? Could they even service 2 000 more than they currently do?

MSNWatch · May 16, 2014

Habitant
To recap: Swatch Group say they will stop supplying spare parts for their brands to watchmakers and material houses outside their own company as from December 2015.

This implies that Omega account watchmakers, such as our good friend Archer, and his non-account colleagues, will only be able to facilitate repairs that do not require parts (more or less and aside from generic OEM substitutes). This would therefore require owners of vintage watches needing parts to return them to official Swatch repair facilities, which is very bad news for watchmakers and enthusiasts alike, for reasons I believe have been previously well noted on this Forum.

My own friendly watchmaker services around 30 Swatch Group products (a conservative minimum) a week. If we then assume that there are another 40 watchmakers spread through the UK doing something like this volume, that means that there would be some 1 200 watches sent to Omega from the UK alone. A week! By the way, do we multiply this by 5 for the USA?

Anyway, let’s then say that there are 20 countries worldwide similarly affected, and let’s assume a much lower average, say 1,000/country/annum. These numbers are just wild guesses, but in the absence of concrete ones, let’s play with them for now, for the root question at the bottom of this dialogue is…

Can Swatch Group really manage to service 20 000 watches a year? Could they even service 2 000 more than they currently do?

For the vintage omegas a lot will stay with the independents for the time being - some will have parts stocked up and others (myself included) will have the parts needed for restoration. If you have a lot of vintage omegas it is only wise that you have a lot of spare parts.

dsio · May 16, 2014

Habitant
To recap: Swatch Group say they will stop supplying spare parts for their brands to watchmakers and material houses outside their own company as from December 2015.

This implies that Omega account watchmakers, such as our good friend Archer, and his non-account colleagues, will only be able to facilitate repairs that do not require parts (more or less and aside from generic OEM substitutes). This would therefore require owners of vintage watches needing parts to return them to official Swatch repair facilities, which is very bad news for watchmakers and enthusiasts alike, for reasons I believe have been previously well noted on this Forum.

My own friendly watchmaker services around 30 Swatch Group products (a conservative minimum) a week. If we then assume that there are another 40 watchmakers spread through the UK doing something like this volume, that means that there would be some 1 200 watches sent to Omega from the UK alone. A week! By the way, do we multiply this by 5 for the USA?

Anyway, let’s then say that there are 20 countries worldwide similarly affected, and let’s assume a much lower average, say 1,000/country/annum. These numbers are just wild guesses, but in the absence of concrete ones, let’s play with them for now, for the root question at the bottom of this dialogue is…

Can Swatch Group really manage to service 20 000 watches a year? Could they even service 2 000 more than they currently do?

Where did you hear that they won't be supplying to watchmakers?

MSNWatch · May 16, 2014

dsio
Where did you hear that they won't be supplying to watchmakers?

Assumed to follow a cutoff of supply to the wholesale parts warehouses such as ofrei and cousins.

Habitant · May 16, 2014

dsio
Where did you hear that they won't be supplying to watchmakers?

As Archer said earlier "No evidence of that....yet...", but I would assume they would tighten this supply, too. Perhaps the question to ask is 'Why wouldn't they?" There's little economic return to them to supply watchmakers; it's easier and more profitable to supply material houses, who then sell on to the trade, so why suffer individual watchmakers? Hard to know exactly what their strategy is, as nothing about it makes compelling sense.

Habitant · May 16, 2014

MSNWatch
For the vintage omegas a lot will stay with the independents for the time being - some will have parts stocked up and others (myself included) will have the parts needed for restoration. If you have a lot of vintage omegas it is only wise that you have a lot of spare parts.

But how can you anticipate what you'll need, each movement has suffered unique stresses (some have congenital faults, of course...) and so how could you begin to guess at how many reversing wheels to keep around, f'r instance?

ulackfocus · May 16, 2014

Habitant
But how can you anticipate what you'll need

You do get to know what piece(s) get replaced most often. Set bridges on the 60's automatics seem to be sort of common replacements - not every movement, but I've had enough to know that's one part to stock up on.