This really pisses me off! Swatch Group cuts parts supplies to external distributors (UK).

Northernman · May 12, 2014

Stewart H
All the more reason to ensure that you don't wind those watches without keeping up a regular service regime. I guess it will double the price of "donor" movements over night at the end of next year - especially those with the cal. 550 base.

Shhhhhh! Don't tell!!! 😉

Davidt · May 12, 2014

Bloody hell!! Excuse my ignorance but will this include simple service parts like a main spring etc as well? Will it get to the stage where most if us have no option but to send our treasures off to Bienne or is it a case if where there's a will there's a way? If it includes main springs, even if watch makers stock up, a pile of 861 springs isn't going to last long is it?!

gatorcpa · May 12, 2014

Davidt3449
Excuse my ignorance but will this include simple service parts like a main spring etc as well? !

Technically, yes. For items that were meant to be replaced periodically, like mainsprings, crystals and gaskets, there were (and possibly still are) a number of generic manufacturers and supply shouldn't be a problem for a long time.

The real issue are more proprietary parts, like case parts, hands, gears, etc.
gatorcpa

ulackfocus · May 12, 2014

To play devil's advocate - this is good business for Swatch. They aren't doing anything different from most other manufacturer anyway. The Swiss will do what they want, and nobody….. not even the US Supreme Court….. will say otherwise. Besides, they'll just find a way around it to screw independents even harder if they're ruled against.

Davidt · May 12, 2014

gatorcpa
Technically, yes. For items that were meant to be replaced periodically, like mainsprings, crystals and gaskets, there were (and possibly still are) a number of generic manufacturers and supply shouldn't be a problem for a long time.

The real issue are more proprietary parts, like case parts, hands, gears, etc.
gatorcpa

So perhaps, at least in the short term, it will be a bigger issue for resurrecting barn finds and the like, as opposed to keeping watches going that have been regularly serviced In the recent past?

MSNWatch · May 12, 2014

Davidt3449
So perhaps, at least in the short term, it will be a bigger issue for resurrecting barn finds and the like, as opposed to keeping watches going that have been regularly serviced In the recent past?

That's already true now as some parts have been unavailable for some time.

Davidt · May 12, 2014

Any idea how this will affect STS? Will they now have to send 861's to Bienne, as with 321's or will they continue to be an approved service centre?

Davidt · May 12, 2014

MSNWatch
That's already true now as some parts have been unavailable for some time.

To my mind though, it comes down to what's reasonable (Although I get that as a vintage watch guy, my opinion might not hold much sway over at Swatch HQ). It's reasonable that 321 parts are hard to come by as it's no longer in production. It's not reasonable that parts for others, such as an 861 are hard to come by, when essentially the movement is still being made.

gatorcpa · May 12, 2014

Davidt3449
Any idea how this will affect STS? Will they now have to send 861's to Bienne, as with 321's or will they continue to be an approved service centre?

No clue what Swatch's plans will be for STS. My gut is that they will continue to be the UK repair center for many years. As for the servicing of older calibers, I think they will follow the Rolex model, which goes something like this:

1. Current models are serviced in the customer's country with supplies kept in stock by manufacturer.

2. Once caliber goes out of production, service is done locally until the manufacturer decides that parts supply is low. At that point, the movement is deemed to be "vintage".

3. Vintage models serviced only at factory in Switzerland, where strict controls are kept on remaining parts and only certain watchmakers are trained in service techniques.

4. (Rolex only, I hope) After 30 or so years, factory service is no longer performed and remaining parts stock destroyed.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa

Joe K. · May 12, 2014

This all makes me think independent production of parts (watches, cars, etc) could be quite profitable in the near future. We just need the process of automated 3-D scanning/milling/printing to mature and come down in price. It's just a question of time (IMO - not to distant future) before your watchmaker will be able to manufacture these parts based on an original at a minimal investment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/25/fashion/watchmakers-slow-to-adopt-3-d-printing.html?_r=0

gatorcpa · May 12, 2014

I certainly think that we are very close with the technology. However, it remains to be seen if the watch companies will allow such parts to be replicated generically using 3-D technology. I sense a whole new area of copyright/trademark law coming for the protection of design.

Remember back in the early 1990's when we all thought that the internet was going to be free forever?
gatorcpa

Joe K. · May 12, 2014

The only protection for parts would be if they are covered by patent, once the period of protection has passed the watch companies do not have a legal remedy. The only option would be to void a warranty - which probably would not be in effect anyway.

gatorcpa
I certainly think that we are very close with the technology. However, it remains to be seen if the watch companies will allow such parts to be replicated generically using 3-D technology. I sense a whole new area of copyright/trademark law coming for the protection of design.

Remember back in the early 1990's when we all thought that the internet was going to be free forever?
gatorcpa

Northernman · May 13, 2014

gatorcpa
I certainly think that we are very close with the technology. However, it remains to be seen if the watch companies will allow such parts to be replicated generically using 3-D technology. I sense a whole new area of copyright/trademark law coming for the protection of design.

Remember back in the early 1990's when we all thought that the internet was going to be free forever?
gatorcpa

I think easy copying/reproducing parts will become more and more an option during the next 10 years or so. If this holds, then several companies will have to (yet again) rethink their strategies on how to create revenues.
Basically what we would be looking at is a revolution in production and distribution of material in a magnitude most of us can not yet understand.
There are some challenges in terms of what materials and alloys that can be replaced, and I am a afraid small and intricate watch parts may come relatively far down the list on what would easily be copied. However I am certain it will come!

When it comes to copyright/trademark legislation this will vary from country to country. For vintage watches at least it will no create any issues where I live as all kinds of protection are void and dead after a certain period of time. As for the future I guess the companies will have more than enough work cut out in order to protect their most recent designs. A few parts for watch movements dating back to the 1940-50-60s will not have high priorities.😗

Archer · May 14, 2014

Tritium
Will it also affect to watchmakers with omega accounts?

No evidence of that....yet...

Habitant · May 14, 2014

LouS
Is there - or will there soon be - room in the market for knock-off parts, sold as such (i.e. not pretending to be authentic)? The manufacturing capability appears to exist, and the watch companies are creating the need, particularly for older watches.

I'm predicting that 3D printing is going to have huge ramifications for the business models of all manufactured goods, and I'd include watch parts in that. Today? No. Tomorrow? No. But 3D is coming and I can't really see any reason that a high resolution scanner and high end 3D printer couldn't start knocking out parts.

Lots of new arguments to be had about authenticity, no doubt.

Interesting, too, how accepting we all are of this decision. A bit of grumbling, but still somehow understanding of their position. I'm not. The value of Omega to their shareholders is created by people just like the forum members here, the opinion-formers that support the credibility of the brand. The modern world, eh? We all seem to feel powerless, even though we have to power of the internet to work with. Curious.

Habitant · May 14, 2014

gatorcpa
I certainly think that we are very close with the technology. However, it remains to be seen if the watch companies will allow such parts to be replicated generically using 3-D technology. I sense a whole new area of copyright/trademark law coming for the protection of design.

Remember back in the early 1990's when we all thought that the internet was going to be free forever?
gatorcpa

I agree that copyright will be - should be - an issue. But I am a professional photographer and I can tell you that there will be as little protection in manufacturing as there was in 'content creation.' Image creators (etc) are required to enforce their copyright, a near impossibility in the real world. For the most part, people have come to think that my 'content' is free, and they can use it as they like with no consequences. In reality, they're right.
After 30 years, I'd have to say that any viable business models that may have once existed in my industry are comprehensively broken and will never be repaired. The arguments are complex, but I can't see any government having the will or expertise to protect intellectual property, not really. Manufacturing will face similar exposure and I can't see any politician grasping this nettle. Companies that manufacture have the ears of government, but I still can't see how anyone is going to stuff the genie back in the bottle for me, or for manufacturers.

Archer · May 14, 2014

Habitant
I'm predicting that 3D printing is going to have huge ramifications for the business models of all manufactured goods, and I'd include watch parts in that. Today? No. Tomorrow? No. But 3D is coming and I can't really see any reason that a high resolution scanner and high end 3D printer couldn't start knocking out parts.

Lots of new arguments to be had about authenticity, no doubt.

Interesting, too, how accepting we all are of this decision. A bit of grumbling, but still somehow understanding of their position. I'm not. The value of Omega to their shareholders is created by people just like the forum members here, the opinion-formers that support the credibility of the brand. The modern world, eh? We all seem to feel powerless, even though we have to power of the internet to work with. Curious.

3D printing might be good for some things, but there are going to be parts in a watch that will have to made the traditional ways, at least for the foreseeable future. Many parts inside a watch don't lend themselves to 3D printing really. The idea that all the parts in a watch can be printed out and immediately put into use in a watch is pure fantasy at this point, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

I am also a bit surprised at how accepting people are of this. Maybe just because it's the wholesaler who is being restricted based on what we know so far. Will be interesting too see if this affects Otto Frei, or if this is just a specific issue with Cousins.

But don't be mistaken about how this will affect Swatch/Omega - they simply have to look around the industry to know for certain that restricting parts has no significant affect on new watch sales. The vast majority of watch owners are either not aware or don't care about this issue, because they will send their watch back to the factory for service, believing that is the best choice anyway.

Many people who might be mildly angry now will soon forget it when the next shiny new model comes out that they just have to own...

Cheers, Al

Habitant · May 14, 2014

Archer
3D printing might be good for some things, but there are going to be parts in a watch that will have to made the traditional ways, at least for the foreseeable future. Many parts inside a watch don't lend themselves to 3D printing really. The idea that all the parts in a watch can be printed out and immediately put into use in a watch is pure fantasy at this point, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

I am also a bit surprised at how accepting people are of this. Maybe just because it's the wholesaler who is being restricted based on what we know so far. Will be interesting too see if this affects Otto Frei, or if this is just a specific issue with Cousins.

But don't be mistaken about how this will affect Swatch/Omega - they simply have to look around the industry to know for certain that restricting parts has no significant affect on new watch sales. The vast majority of watch owners are either not aware or don't care about this issue, because they will send their watch back to the factory for service, believing that is the best choice anyway.

Many people who might be mildly angry now will soon forget it when the next shiny new model comes out that they just have to own...

Cheers, Al

Oh, I agree, 3D is a fantasy at this point. But it's hard to imagine what's coming. There's a 3D shop here in London who are already cheerfully doing 3D copies of articles the public are bringing. Nothing as precise as watch parts, of course. But they're happy to disregard any intellectual property rights vested in the things they copy and I can't see anyone (as I said) stepping up and figuring out a way to control 3D, so I presume that there will be no viable controls talked about, until it's too late. And there are those whose say that IP is an outmoded idea, blah, blah, blah; but of course, much of our existing business models are based on control of IP.

Do Swatch care about heritage products? Not really, as you say; selling new stuff is the thing. But on the other hand, they're still calling them 'Speedmaster,'aren't they? So the heritage has some value. It's about finding a place to apply pressure and leveraging it. Of course, in the case of Cousins, they're a real pain in the arse to deal with, so I can't see many in the UK shouting out their support for a company who seems to go out of their way not to serve their clients.

Archer · May 14, 2014

They certainly care about the heritage, as they milk it all the time to promote new watch sales - Speedmaster being the obvious example. But that's really as far as it goes. I think the fact that in their museum they have many watches that are not really correct illustrates that they really don't care much about the kind of things that collectors do, but collectors are a very small portion of their business. I saw an interview a while back where the head of Omega said they sell about 2,000 watches a day on average if I remember correctly. I suspect the majority of those are sold to people who are just looking for a good watch, and are not even enthusiasts let alone collectors.

As for 3D printing, being able to produce a specific shape is only a very small portion of the battle. Many parts inside a watch are assemblies that have different parts made of different materials, with very different engineering properties. Even something as simple as a replacement train wheel is quite complex. You have the shaft/pinion made of carbon steel that has been heat treated mated with a brass/glucydur gear. So even if you could print both parts that make up this assembly, you would still have to stake them together. Also, the surface finish of the pivots and teeth would have to be good enough for use in a watch - the pivots would likely require finishing to final size and burnishing at the very least to make it useful. Not sure how you would finish the gear teeth off well enough to make them functional.

A train wheel bridge is made of brass with jewels pressed in place, so this would mean printing the bridge and then possibly reaming holes to insert the jewels, making sure that all the depthing is correct between the wheels. Jewels of course can't be printed - they are grown and then machined to final size and surface finish requirements.

How about a reversing wheel:

Worn one on the right and new one on the left - can't see this being printed any time soon, not to mention a mainspring or balance spring...the list goes on and on. This one is from a 7750, but even the winding wheel in a Cal. 550 series is a complex little assembly:

A "balance complete" is made of a staff, balance wheel (with or without screws), balance spring collet, balance spring stud (glued or pinned), balance spring itself, roller table, and impulse pin (jewel usually). All these parts are made of different materials.

When people talk about printing parts, I'm not sure who they believe will be doing this, but it's not likely something your local watchmaker is going to have in his shop due to the complexity of the things I've mentioned here. If they won't be doing it, then it would require a company that has the resources to do this, and they would need to pick and choose parts that would be worthwhile to produce in some volume, as one off parts would be extremely expensive.

Not saying this won't be done in the future, but it's a long ways off in my opinion, and the economics of it have to make sense. Will there be any independent watchmakers left by the time this becomes technically feasible and cheap enough to be a viable solution rather than sending your watch to Omega? Not so sure about that.

Cheers, Al

jakeh417 · May 14, 2014

oh wow, this is a shocker to me. I buy A LOT from CousinsUK. My cost is going to shoot up.

I have tons of parts I was just holding off buying but at this rate, from now till end of the year I'll most likely buy all of them. I guess this also means that after cut off, CousinsUK will significantly raise their prices.

The scary thing is, you have to ask yourself, is Ofrei, Jules Borel and other supplier houses next? If they go, this has got to be the defining moment where watchmakers actually say enough is enough and do more than just sit idle.

Scary times ahead.