- Posts
- 83
- Likes
- 151
Gamma
·If there’s money to be made it’s amazing the lengths people will go to.....
The mystifying Rolex patina
- Posts
- 1,258
- Likes
- 2,736
harrymai86
·Newer version….
- Posts
- 2,929
- Likes
- 6,105
Fallout Boy
·This franchise-system is called Chicchi di Mais.
Formerly know as The Tuscanian Fresco-Company TFC 😁
Formerly know as The Tuscanian Fresco-Company TFC 😁
- Posts
- 2,212
- Likes
- 6,890
ATWG
·Which seller? I hardly check out rolexforums 🙁
- Posts
- 1,258
- Likes
- 2,736
harrymai86
·You don’t have to look that far….
- Posts
- 203
- Likes
- 107
Chris75
·I agree that it's more common to find lighter patina on five digits watches and that over exposed / color adjusted pictures may be tricky or suspicious.
That said I think that luckily it's always possible to verify if a 90's watch was relumed or messed up, with the help of a UV light (whereas for example is harder on earlier watches because 70's lume is now dead).
In fact 90's lume still have to react if stimulated with UV: it reacts "whitish " when you point the light and glows for a few seconds after you turn it off.
The uniformity and intensity of the glow may change, but you should always find some shimmering: and this doesn't happen on relumed watches.
While you may find some difference between hands and indexes in terms of glow (and colors) because of the different suppliers, you will always find this whitish and glowing on original lume (at least on indexes) while relumed /repainted are dead.
Of course I don't want to start any witch hunting but here some pictures of some well known and reputable American dealers: from these pictures is impossible to tell, the only way is the UV check.
A different kettle of fish are all the "cream" Daytona / Explorer and the Patrizzi 16250: while the 90's lume is in general starting to develop stronger patina, imo those dials can't change colors with time, cream Daytona and Explorer had a flaw in painting that showed immediately, and UV can't help to see if they were messed up.
That said I think that luckily it's always possible to verify if a 90's watch was relumed or messed up, with the help of a UV light (whereas for example is harder on earlier watches because 70's lume is now dead).
In fact 90's lume still have to react if stimulated with UV: it reacts "whitish " when you point the light and glows for a few seconds after you turn it off.
The uniformity and intensity of the glow may change, but you should always find some shimmering: and this doesn't happen on relumed watches.
While you may find some difference between hands and indexes in terms of glow (and colors) because of the different suppliers, you will always find this whitish and glowing on original lume (at least on indexes) while relumed /repainted are dead.
Of course I don't want to start any witch hunting but here some pictures of some well known and reputable American dealers: from these pictures is impossible to tell, the only way is the UV check.
A different kettle of fish are all the "cream" Daytona / Explorer and the Patrizzi 16250: while the 90's lume is in general starting to develop stronger patina, imo those dials can't change colors with time, cream Daytona and Explorer had a flaw in painting that showed immediately, and UV can't help to see if they were messed up.
- Posts
- 897
- Likes
- 3,713
TheGreekPhysique
·Of course I don't want to start any witch hunting but here some pictures of some well known and reputable American dealers: from these pictures is impossible to tell, the only way is the UV check.
The davidoff brothers aren't located in the USA. Do you have any experience dealing with them personally? If not perhaps including a picture of a watch they are offering with the caveat "not to start any witch hunting"--but heres a picture isnt the best way to go about it. My transaction with them was extremely positive and I think they do the speedmaster collecting community a great service with the information they provide.
On the other hand I have dealt with Fog City. Can not comment on the legitimacy of the watches they offer but can say, unequivocally, that Tim's customer service was HORRIBLE.
- Posts
- 203
- Likes
- 107
Chris75
·The davidoff brothers aren't located in the USA. Do you have any experience dealing with them personally? If not perhaps including a picture of a watch they are offering with the caveat "not to start any witch hunting"--but heres a picture isnt the best way to go about it. My transaction with them was extremely positive and I think they do the speedmaster collecting community a great service with the information they provide.
On the other hand I have dealt with Fog City. Can not comment on the legitimacy of the watches they offer but can say, unequivocally, that Tim's customer service was HORRIBLE.
I am sorry if I wasn’t clear enough with my message: what I meant is “all the pictured watches are from reputable seller (as for example Davidoff brothers), so we don’t have any reason to doubt their originality, but still it’s impossible to be able to judge just from those pictures”.
My intention wasn’t to imply these watches weren’t ok, in fact my intention was the very opposite.
I used pictures of reputable dealers (American and Swiss ones that also worked in the US for some time, sorry for my mistake) not to question the dealers, but to affirm that even with the best watches from the best dealers without UV you can’t tell for sure.
I specified I didn’t want to start a witch hunt because my intention wasn’t to start a debate on those dealers (as you did) but to be focoused on the patina question.
I had experience with all these dealers (different experiences with each one, but this doesn’t change the fact these are reputable seller that don’t fake their Watches) but here we aren’t questioning dealers, aren’t we?
Edited:
- Posts
- 2,212
- Likes
- 6,890
ATWG
·Common sense goes a long way. I doubt every single vintage Rolex or Speedmaster offered by Roy/Sacha, for example, would be perfectly patinated, with perfect case and if it comes with Papers, all matching booklets etc. to the tee. Same could be said about Curtis and Adam mentioned above. What raises suspicion is the continuous inventory of perfect examples.
For the most part, reputable sellers that have brick and mortar store front, will come clean if dial or hands have been altered/relumed. Also, if you have handled enough examples, you know exactly what to look for, which years are prone to strong patina on certain references.
The evidence is in front of us, just need to know what to look for.
For the most part, reputable sellers that have brick and mortar store front, will come clean if dial or hands have been altered/relumed. Also, if you have handled enough examples, you know exactly what to look for, which years are prone to strong patina on certain references.
The evidence is in front of us, just need to know what to look for.
- Posts
- 203
- Likes
- 107
Chris75
·Common sense goes a long way. I doubt every single vintage Rolex or Speedmaster offered by Roy/Sacha, for example, would be perfectly patinated, with perfect case and if it comes with Papers, all matching booklets etc. to the tee. Same could be said about Curtis and Adam mentioned above. What raises suspicion is the continuous inventory of perfect examples.
For the most part, reputable sellers that have brick and mortar store front, will come clean if dial or hands have been altered/relumed. Also, if you have handled enough examples, you know exactly what to look for, which years are prone to strong patina on certain references.
The evidence is in front of us, just need to know what to look for.
As I wrote I was talking about the “mistyfing patina” object of the thread not about the Davidoff or Adam, they offer hundreds of Watches every month and obviously they have a little bit of everything as they need a big inventory.
My examples were just strongly patinated watches of well known watch dealers that we can assume being ok.
I can trust these dealers, but even if I didn’t, I think I would be able to spot a 90’s relumed / repainted lume with the help of a good UV light, because the not original lume doesn’t glow anymore, that was my point.
And I 100% agree that if you handled enough watches you know what to look but I also think that isn’t possibile to judge a watch only from pictures (regarding the lume patina at least).
Edited:
- Posts
- 1,258
- Likes
- 2,736
harrymai86
·Another perspective is that those sellers photography skills definitely improve compared to the last few years, they know how to use the light and camera to make the patina pops in some angles. When you hold the watch on hand it may look abit different.
- Posts
- 32
- Likes
- 69
Shawnnyang
·Can OP post some examples of this phenomenon?
- Posts
- 202
- Likes
- 196
7enderbender
·So does this mean that “relic-ing”, as it’s called on the guitar world, is now coming to the watch world? Only on actual originals and not modern watches?
For those new to this: there is a whole industry built now around guitar manufacturers that produce new guitars (Fender, Gibson, Martin, to just name the big ones) that are more or less exact copies of the models from the “vintage” years (often 50s and 60s) - and then well paid specialists use all sorts of tools and chemicals to make them look like beat up originals from back in the days (sometimes more sometimes less convincing).
For those new to this: there is a whole industry built now around guitar manufacturers that produce new guitars (Fender, Gibson, Martin, to just name the big ones) that are more or less exact copies of the models from the “vintage” years (often 50s and 60s) - and then well paid specialists use all sorts of tools and chemicals to make them look like beat up originals from back in the days (sometimes more sometimes less convincing).
- Posts
- 4,043
- Likes
- 13,950
watchknut
·When it comes to 5 digit patina, the one from 89-91 usually have the strongest patina, and many WILL NOT have matching hands.
When I see matching hands that is usually an indication of color matched.
Rarely will you see heavy custard outside of the range, although earlier do have it.
Everyone has to remember one thing...Ricky down in Florida, who is a classically trained ballet dancer, can make 1:1 inserts from scratch, relume, laser weld, recut...you name it. All of his work is on the up and up and he doesn't deceive.
So if a classically trained ballet dancer, with little formal training can do this amazing work, what in the hell can someone with training whose goal is to deceive...what can they do?
I'll tell you...they can relacquer a gilt dial with original lume to make it a mirror...they can relacquer a gilt dial and relume with radium (we all know that shit show that I uncovered last year), they can laser weld, recut, and age...they can create a case from scratch, cut serial numbers, and create fake papers.
They can do and DO IT ALL...everyday.
When it comes to VR, you have to know the game, the players, the rules (or lack there of), and how the game is played. It's money ball now and everyone is out for themselves.
Good luck with it...you'll need it.
When I see matching hands that is usually an indication of color matched.
Rarely will you see heavy custard outside of the range, although earlier do have it.
Everyone has to remember one thing...Ricky down in Florida, who is a classically trained ballet dancer, can make 1:1 inserts from scratch, relume, laser weld, recut...you name it. All of his work is on the up and up and he doesn't deceive.
So if a classically trained ballet dancer, with little formal training can do this amazing work, what in the hell can someone with training whose goal is to deceive...what can they do?
I'll tell you...they can relacquer a gilt dial with original lume to make it a mirror...they can relacquer a gilt dial and relume with radium (we all know that shit show that I uncovered last year), they can laser weld, recut, and age...they can create a case from scratch, cut serial numbers, and create fake papers.
They can do and DO IT ALL...everyday.
When it comes to VR, you have to know the game, the players, the rules (or lack there of), and how the game is played. It's money ball now and everyone is out for themselves.
Good luck with it...you'll need it.
- Posts
- 236
- Likes
- 908
mzzleather
·When it comes to 5 digit patina, the one from 89-91 usually have the strongest patina, and many WILL NOT have matching hands.
When I see matching hands that is usually an indication of color matched.
Rarely will you see heavy custard outside of the range, although earlier do have it.
Everyone has to remember one thing...Ricky down in Florida, who is a classically trained ballet dancer, can make 1:1 inserts from scratch, relume, laser weld, recut...you name it. All of his work is on the up and up and he doesn't deceive.
So if a classically trained ballet dancer, with little formal training can do this amazing work, what in the hell can someone with training whose goal is to deceive...what can they do?
I'll tell you...they can relacquer a gilt dial with original lume to make it a mirror...they can relacquer a gilt dial and relume with radium (we all know that shit show that I uncovered last year), they can laser weld, recut, and age...they can create a case from scratch, cut serial numbers, and create fake papers.
They can do and DO IT ALL...everyday.
When it comes to VR, you have to know the game, the players, the rules (or lack there of), and how the game is played. It's money ball now and everyone is out for themselves.
Good luck with it...you'll need it.
- Posts
- 4,043
- Likes
- 13,950
watchknut
·I learned how to hunt early, and have been fortunate to build a halfway decent collection without having to go through the normal dealer channels.
This has gotten me honest watches either directly from the family or close to it. While most are not perfect, I do know that they are honest and haven't been prepped.
This has gotten me honest watches either directly from the family or close to it. While most are not perfect, I do know that they are honest and haven't been prepped.
- Posts
- 15,048
- Likes
- 24,057
cicindela
··Steve @ ΩFI agree that it's more common to find lighter patina on five digits watches and that over exposed / color adjusted pictures may be tricky or suspicious.
That said I think that luckily it's always possible to verify if a 90's watch was relumed or messed up, with the help of a UV light (whereas for example is harder on earlier watches because 70's lume is now dead).
In fact 90's lume still have to react if stimulated with UV: it reacts "whitish " when you point the light and glows for a few seconds after you turn it off.
The uniformity and intensity of the glow may change, but you should always find some shimmering: and this doesn't happen on relumed watches.
While you may find some difference between hands and indexes in terms of glow (and colors) because of the different suppliers, you will always find this whitish and glowing on original lume (at least on indexes) while relumed /repainted are dead.
Of course I don't want to start any witch hunting but here some pictures of some well known and reputable American dealers: from these pictures is impossible to tell, the only way is the UV check.
A different kettle of fish are all the "cream" Daytona / Explorer and the Patrizzi 16250: while the 90's lume is in general starting to develop stronger patina, imo those dials can't change colors with time, cream Daytona and Explorer had a flaw in painting that showed immediately, and UV can't help to see if they were messed up.
I agree that it's more common to find lighter patina on five digits watches and that over exposed / color adjusted pictures may be tricky or suspicious.
That said I think that luckily it's always possible to verify if a 90's watch was relumed or messed up, with the help of a UV light (whereas for example is harder on earlier watches because 70's lume is now dead).
In fact 90's lume still have to react if stimulated with UV: it reacts "whitish " when you point the light and glows for a few seconds after you turn it off.
The uniformity and intensity of the glow may change, but you should always find some shimmering: and this doesn't happen on relumed watches.
While you may find some difference between hands and indexes in terms of glow (and colors) because of the different suppliers, you will always find this whitish and glowing on original lume (at least on indexes) while relumed /repainted are dead.
Of course I don't want to start any witch hunting but here some pictures of some well known and reputable American dealers: from these pictures is impossible to tell, the only way is the UV check.
A different kettle of fish are all the "cream" Daytona / Explorer and the Patrizzi 16250: while the 90's lume is in general starting to develop stronger patina, imo those dials can't change colors with time, cream Daytona and Explorer had a flaw in painting that showed immediately, and UV can't help to see if they were messed up.
Earl Grey?
- Posts
- 44
- Likes
- 96
bjhove
·Can OP post some examples of this phenomenon?
https://chrono24.app/rolex/rolex-su...90s--id22645840.htm?SETLANG=da_DK&SETCURR=DKK
- Posts
- 16,307
- Likes
- 44,994
JwRosenthal
·Here is a great example IMO. A 5513 L-series from 1990 will never get this 'patina' in a natural way:
https://chrono24.app/rolex/rolex-su...90s--id22645840.htm?SETLANG=da_DK&SETCURR=DKK
So let’s look at what an early 90’s 14060 (basically the same dial as the above 5513) looks like when it naturally patinas
Still looking pretty creamy to me
how about an early 80’s 16750
Not looking like burnt sugar after 20 years on my wrist…hmmm, are mine defective? Isn’t my lume supposed to age like cave cheese?
- Posts
- 203
- Likes
- 107
Chris75
·Here is a great example IMO. A 5513 L-series from 1990 will never get this 'patina' in a natural way:
https://chrono24.app/rolex/rolex-su...90s--id22645840.htm?SETLANG=da_DK&SETCURR=DKK
That dealer is unfortunately well known for messing with watches.
In fact patina is the last thing I would worry about: here two watches from the same seller with completely fake Arab signature, and asking price for each one is probably nine/ ten times more than the 5513.
Similar threads
- Posts
- 2
- Views
- 614
- Posts
- 18
- Views
- 7K
- Posts
- 1
- Views
- 2K
- Posts
- 5
- Views
- 8K