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ulackfocus
·Man, a custom avatar message like "Multinational Tax Enforcer" has a ring to it, don'tchathink?
The Ethics of fee avoidance using PayPal and Ebay
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Speedmasterfan88
·Don't you have something like "ebaykleinanzeigen" or "kijiji" over there in the states? Both are owned by eBay. It's more like Craigslist i think, but no one uses craigslist in Germany For watches so i'm not so familiar with it. No fees, only a very small amount For putting the item up in the first time. And the payment Method is up to you. Thou Most of the Time it's f2f For more valuable items. I used it alot in the past. Maybe not that much international exposure like in eBay but i don't have to pay 10% in fees. Which, I personally think is quite steep.
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WatchVaultNYC
·I'm a stickler for rules, but it's a grey area subject to interpretation. Here's my opinion, and please take it from the position of someone who sells on many channels, and very often (tens of thousands over 10 years). I'll remove "morally" since everyone's morality is different:
Is it correct to surcharge people to cover PayPal charges?
Paypal specifically says that you should not surcharge the fees, and it's an incredibly easy thing to build in the 2.9%-4% fee into the sale price if you're targeting a "net" amount. If it's easy to follow the rules, I believe you take the extra step and do it.
With regards to "friends and family" payments, for casual sellers who want to dispose of their watches I see no problem in it - if you're OK with having no buyer protection. If selling is done for profit (even if it's a hobby), "friends and family" payments should be avoided - primarily because I believe running a for-profit hobby/business should not depend on skirting the rules (avoiding fees, not paying taxes) to be profitable.
To the side question of when does a hobby start acting like a business? Again it depends but IMO, once you start worrying about what happens to all that money if the government shuts you down - you're a business.
Is it correct to sell to an eBay buyer an eBay item outside of eBay to evade fees?
I sell on multiple venues, and it is a real thing that people discover your forum posting or website after they see you on Ebay, or vice versa. So IMO you can't strictly say that your watch would never have been seen by the potential buyer if not for Ebay services. That said, I personally thread a somewhat arbitrary but I think fair line - if a buyer is interested in a watch and if they want to, I will close it off Ebay with a 9% discount so the buyer can save on Ebay fees. As I get the exact same money either way, I'm happy to close in or out of Ebay.
Is it correct to end an auction early?
Yes, as long as you're selling to someone who is not bidding (i.e. someone from another sales channel).
I never close auctions for an Ebayer who messages me and says "I'll buy that watch direct paypal for $$$, so end the auction early". Usually it's just a guy who does not want the auction to close higher than what they are willing to pay.
As for the side issue of sales tax, remember that at least in the USA, you can't charge sales tax if you have no way to remit it to the state, which usually means your business needs it's own tax ID as well as a permit to collect sales tax. Practically speaking, you're probably already an established, tax paying business before you start doing this.
Is it correct to surcharge people to cover PayPal charges?
Paypal specifically says that you should not surcharge the fees, and it's an incredibly easy thing to build in the 2.9%-4% fee into the sale price if you're targeting a "net" amount. If it's easy to follow the rules, I believe you take the extra step and do it.
With regards to "friends and family" payments, for casual sellers who want to dispose of their watches I see no problem in it - if you're OK with having no buyer protection. If selling is done for profit (even if it's a hobby), "friends and family" payments should be avoided - primarily because I believe running a for-profit hobby/business should not depend on skirting the rules (avoiding fees, not paying taxes) to be profitable.
To the side question of when does a hobby start acting like a business? Again it depends but IMO, once you start worrying about what happens to all that money if the government shuts you down - you're a business.
Is it correct to sell to an eBay buyer an eBay item outside of eBay to evade fees?
I sell on multiple venues, and it is a real thing that people discover your forum posting or website after they see you on Ebay, or vice versa. So IMO you can't strictly say that your watch would never have been seen by the potential buyer if not for Ebay services. That said, I personally thread a somewhat arbitrary but I think fair line - if a buyer is interested in a watch and if they want to, I will close it off Ebay with a 9% discount so the buyer can save on Ebay fees. As I get the exact same money either way, I'm happy to close in or out of Ebay.
Is it correct to end an auction early?
Yes, as long as you're selling to someone who is not bidding (i.e. someone from another sales channel).
I never close auctions for an Ebayer who messages me and says "I'll buy that watch direct paypal for $$$, so end the auction early". Usually it's just a guy who does not want the auction to close higher than what they are willing to pay.
As for the side issue of sales tax, remember that at least in the USA, you can't charge sales tax if you have no way to remit it to the state, which usually means your business needs it's own tax ID as well as a permit to collect sales tax. Practically speaking, you're probably already an established, tax paying business before you start doing this.
Edited:
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Slevin kelevra
·Great advice, thanks SF
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cristos71
·Man, a custom avatar message like "Multinational Tax Enforcer" has a ring to it, don'tchathink?
Well just to be clear, in 13 years on Ebay I've sold in total maybe 20 items and never closed an auction early or sold outside of the rules
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tyrantlizardrex
·The only listings that I've ever ended early, have been in the last 6 months, and both for watches.
This is with 10+ years on eBay, and around 500 items sold.
It ultimately came down to me wanting to sell the watches, buyers not wanting to pay the asking, and the price they wanted to pay + fees making it too tight from my end... morals meh... but very much against the ToS...
Both transactions were then completed through PayPal, with me picking up the fees... because I like protection.
This is a bit of a ramble, I know, but eBay has become a much less friendly place to trade as a seller... the fees have risen a lot in the time that I've been using it, the fee caps have gone, and the level of protection for sellers is vastly reduced.
Will I trade outside of Auctions again? Probably.
Will I feel guilty about it? Definitely not.
Is it against the ToS. Hell Yes.
This is with 10+ years on eBay, and around 500 items sold.
It ultimately came down to me wanting to sell the watches, buyers not wanting to pay the asking, and the price they wanted to pay + fees making it too tight from my end... morals meh... but very much against the ToS...
Both transactions were then completed through PayPal, with me picking up the fees... because I like protection.
This is a bit of a ramble, I know, but eBay has become a much less friendly place to trade as a seller... the fees have risen a lot in the time that I've been using it, the fee caps have gone, and the level of protection for sellers is vastly reduced.
Will I trade outside of Auctions again? Probably.
Will I feel guilty about it? Definitely not.
Is it against the ToS. Hell Yes.
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alam
·Something that can be viewed as a similar issue as the fee evasion/avoidance topic discussed here - how many of you disclose and tally all your out-state, online purchases when filing your state income taxes at the end of the year?? do you list all your Amazon, eBay, etc. purchases that were not taxed by your state sales tax rules and pay those taxes in your state income tax filing?
🍿
🍿
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tyrantlizardrex
·Something that can be viewed as a similar issue as the fee evasion/avoidance topic discussed here - how many of you disclose and tally all your out-state, online purchases when filing your state income taxes at the end of the year?? do you list all your Amazon, eBay, etc. purchases that were not taxed by your state sales tax rules and pay those taxes in your state income tax filing?
🍿
We don't have that in the UK... thank goodness. 😁
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smitty190373
·Interesting thread...I recently bought my Speedmaster from a private seller I found online. I was able to go and view the item at his office, and pay cash. No problems there. I checked the watch, was happy with what I was buying, paid..and left.
A week before that I found what I though was a perfect choice on Ebay, UK seller, free p+p. I called as his number was in the ad and said i'll buy it, i'll pay the ask, it was OBO also but it was a fair price so didn't mind. Seller then said "NO, DO NOT BUY IT NOW". If you do i will cancel it. Come in person, inspect and pay cash. Seller was 2.5 hour drive..I tried to arrange to view but by the time I was able to travel(3hr drive), a local guy had bought the watch, and I missed out. All in all a cr4p experience that left me very frustrated. I am happy with my watch which I have showed on here, but this was was a better example and a slightly lower price.
I don't ever think this will stop happening.
A week before that I found what I though was a perfect choice on Ebay, UK seller, free p+p. I called as his number was in the ad and said i'll buy it, i'll pay the ask, it was OBO also but it was a fair price so didn't mind. Seller then said "NO, DO NOT BUY IT NOW". If you do i will cancel it. Come in person, inspect and pay cash. Seller was 2.5 hour drive..I tried to arrange to view but by the time I was able to travel(3hr drive), a local guy had bought the watch, and I missed out. All in all a cr4p experience that left me very frustrated. I am happy with my watch which I have showed on here, but this was was a better example and a slightly lower price.
I don't ever think this will stop happening.
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alam
·We don't have that in the UK... thank goodness. 😁
No worries, your VAT rate covers that! 😀
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marturx
·I have been badly mistreated by eBay/ PayPal. They once stole 2200$ from me. Without asking/ fair warning they took the sum from my PP-account and gave them back to the buyer. When I tried to oppose them on this, they just went silent and refused to answer. When I tried to have them to at least refund the auction fees, they refused, because I didn´t "voluntarily refund the buyer". As I had the chance to do that....not 😵💫 So I actually lost the watch AND 300$ in fees
I have no respect for them whatsoever after that experience, them being fair and ethical. Their user agreement is a joke. I don´t know about the US, but here I´m pretty sure that their terms wouldn´t hold up in court, since their terms are so badly balanced between their rights and obligations vs the rights and obligations they assign on you. eBay works in most cases, but when the shit hits the fan, for any reason, as a seller you are f#cked, regardless or not of any wrong doing on your behalf.
As a result, I don´t accept PayPal as payment for any amount exceeding 1000$. Instead I insist on bankwire and are also very thorough in agreeing with my buyer what happens in the case something goes wrong, which risk he carry, and what risk I carry. If PayPal is used, I let the buyer decide if he wants to pay an higher amount, and thus have the PP-protection, or trust me, and therefore pay a smaller amount for the item I´m selling. As I see it I can decide the price for an item myself, and can add 4% on the price if the buyer insists on a normal PP-payment. It´s only on eBay sales they can stipulate that you as a seller must eat the fees
I strongly feel that they owe me, and not the opposite. I have no moral obligations towards them, and I doubt I have any juridical obligations either, if I some time should succeed in AVOIDING their fees!
I have no respect for them whatsoever after that experience, them being fair and ethical. Their user agreement is a joke. I don´t know about the US, but here I´m pretty sure that their terms wouldn´t hold up in court, since their terms are so badly balanced between their rights and obligations vs the rights and obligations they assign on you. eBay works in most cases, but when the shit hits the fan, for any reason, as a seller you are f#cked, regardless or not of any wrong doing on your behalf.
As a result, I don´t accept PayPal as payment for any amount exceeding 1000$. Instead I insist on bankwire and are also very thorough in agreeing with my buyer what happens in the case something goes wrong, which risk he carry, and what risk I carry. If PayPal is used, I let the buyer decide if he wants to pay an higher amount, and thus have the PP-protection, or trust me, and therefore pay a smaller amount for the item I´m selling. As I see it I can decide the price for an item myself, and can add 4% on the price if the buyer insists on a normal PP-payment. It´s only on eBay sales they can stipulate that you as a seller must eat the fees
I strongly feel that they owe me, and not the opposite. I have no moral obligations towards them, and I doubt I have any juridical obligations either, if I some time should succeed in AVOIDING their fees!
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tyrantlizardrex
·Interesting thread...I recently bought my Speedmaster from a private seller I found online. I was able to go and view the item at his office, and pay cash. No problems there. I checked the watch, was happy with what I was buying, paid..and left.
A week before that I found what I though was a perfect choice on Ebay, UK seller, free p+p. I called as his number was in the ad and said i'll buy it, i'll pay the ask, it was OBO also but it was a fair price so didn't mind. Seller then said "NO, DO NOT BUY IT NOW". If you do i will cancel it. Come in person, inspect and pay cash. Seller was 2.5 hour drive..I tried to arrange to view but by the time I was able to travel(3hr drive), a local guy had bought the watch, and I missed out. All in all a cr4p experience that left me very frustrated. I am happy with my watch which I have showed on here, but this was was a better example and a slightly lower price.
I don't ever think this will stop happening.
That is hugely frustrating.
I try to only deal with one buyer at a time... we're selling both our cars at the moment, and it slows things down, but I just hate to have people travelling to view, and then feeling screwed over because someone else got there first. It's just not cricket.
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smitty190373
·That is hugely frustrating.
I try to only deal with one buyer at a time... we're selling both our cars at the moment, and it slows things down, but I just hate to have people travelling to view, and then feeling screwed over because someone else got there first. It's just not cricket.
Yep it is, the thing that annoyed me the most was that I said, right i'll take it, I'll hit the buy button. Only to be told he would cancel it if I did!
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Davidt
·If I sell via ebay I generally follow the rules. I can't remember an instance where I've avoided this.
However, I agree with Martin that they are hugely biased towards the buyer. Never mind buyer beware, it's seller beware.
I've had various instances where buyers have asked for a cheaper postage option, so I've obliged. Only for the buyer to then claim the item didn't arrive, even though I had a digital copy of their signature. Ebay sided with the buyer so I lost the item and the money.
They just don't give a shit and their customer service, if you're a seller is terrible.
However, I agree with Martin that they are hugely biased towards the buyer. Never mind buyer beware, it's seller beware.
I've had various instances where buyers have asked for a cheaper postage option, so I've obliged. Only for the buyer to then claim the item didn't arrive, even though I had a digital copy of their signature. Ebay sided with the buyer so I lost the item and the money.
They just don't give a shit and their customer service, if you're a seller is terrible.
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uvalaw2005
·I too have had enough dealings with PayPal and eBay where it was clear they were playing by their own set of rules, and not ones that could find any real justification in the T&C, that I'm not terribly concerned about my moral obligations vis-a-vis these companies. My primary concern is protecting myself and my moral obligations vis-a-vis my buyers.
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smitty190373
·If I sell via ebay I generally follow the rules. I can't remember an instance where I've avoided this.
However, I agree with Martin that they are hugely biased towards the buyer. Never mind buyer beware, it's seller beware.
I've had various instances where buyers have asked for a cheaper postage option, so I've obliged. Only for the buyer to then claim the item didn't arrive, even though I had a digital copy of their signature. Ebay sided with the buyer so I lost the item and the money.
They just don't give a shit and their customer service, if you're a seller is terrible.
It does get a bit silly, last week on a UK Ebay sale i saw a Rolex GMT Master 2 with a £2000 postage fee to save the sellers final fee. I can't imagine the auction stayed up for long and those tactics would make me wary of the seller anyway.
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West Slope
·I can see both sides but as a rule I pay the fees. Just recently I sold a watch that had been sitting around for years and I would have estimated it to be worth no more than $100. Thanks to eBay (and the exposure it brings) I sold it for $169 plus shipping after all the fees and honestly have no idea what the buyer was thinking. This is hardly the first time this has happened to me. Years ago I sold a motorcycle part for more money than it was still available for brand new and I had even included a link to the item at the vendor to avoid any confusion on what it was/what model it worked on. Buyers seem to get invested in winning and as a result pay more than they should and it seems both eBay and I benefit from their market reach, something my local Craigslist or a forum just cannot offer.
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marturx
·It does get a bit silly, last week on a UK Ebay sale i saw a Rolex GMT Master 2 with a £2000 postage fee to save the sellers final fee. I can't imagine the auction stayed up for long and those tactics would make me wary of the seller anyway.
Ebay charges 10% also on S&H so that manouvre seems futile in the fee saving perspective IMO
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smitty190373
·Ebay charges 10% also on S&H so that manouvre seems futile in the fee saving perspective IMO
I didn't contact the guy, I just assumed that would be the only logical reason to price £2k p+p, hopefully he got a nasty surprise!
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wsfarrell
·Several forums I visit have stickies in B/S/T to the effect that "it's against PayPal's TOS to ask the buyer to pay fees." This holds whether it's
PP + 4%
PP gift
PP family/friends
PP net to me
If you require a bank wire for payment, this is irrelevant, but there are approximately 3 people on this forum to whom I would send cash. I've just seen too many cases on other forums where long-time, trusted members lose their job, get divorced or whatever and disappear with someone's money.
PP + 4%
PP gift
PP family/friends
PP net to me
If you require a bank wire for payment, this is irrelevant, but there are approximately 3 people on this forum to whom I would send cash. I've just seen too many cases on other forums where long-time, trusted members lose their job, get divorced or whatever and disappear with someone's money.
