Speedmaster Moonwatch losing time.

Enginerd · Jan 28, 2020

Hi Guys,

About a month ago I purchased the Speedmaster Moonwatch cal 1861. Current timekeeping dial up is - 1.5 sec/day. When I bought watch it was +7 sec/day. So it has gradually been losing time. It has already been back to omega to sort out a chrono second hand alignment issue. Since I've had it back it has been running - 1.5 sec/day Dial up other orientations are on average +2 sec/day. I'm aware the tolerance for this watch is +11 to - 1 so should I be concerned about this current timekeeping? Do you think its worth the hassle sending it back to omega again?

Thanks.

Foo2rama · Jan 28, 2020

Is this a new watch? Also +2 seconds a day is phenomenal, I am not sure why you would want to get it adjusted after that. Honestly -1.5 dial up and +2 on average is within spec of the most accurate mechanical chronometers on the market. That is easily within COSC, Superlative, and Master specs for time keeping.

What was the alignment issue?

WYO_Watch · Jan 28, 2020

I guess I don’t understand what problem you’d be asking them to resolve?

You already know it is within the tolerance so... sounds like you may need to buy an Apple Watch 👍 they tell perfect time (unless the battery dies...)

Enginerd · Jan 28, 2020

I know what you're saying, I understand its in tolerance but what concerns me is that it has shifted from 7secs per day to - 1.5. I'm just hoping it's going to settle there at not just keep on becoming slower as time goes by.

The chrono seconds hand wasn't perfectly aligned to the 12. OCD I know but it really bugged me haha!

Enginerd · Jan 28, 2020

WYO_Watch
I guess I don’t understand what problem you’d be asking them to resolve?

You already know it is within the tolerance so... sounds like you may need to buy an Apple Watch 👍 they tell perfect time (unless the battery dies...)

Not at all, I love the speedy! I just hope it has had its settling in period.

VetPsychWars · Jan 28, 2020

If it's a new watch a couple months in, I wouldn't be concerned. Micropolishing happens as the train runs in and when the friction goes down, the amplitude goes up, and the rate will go down a smidge.

Mind you, many watchmakers will tell me I'm full of crap, but this is classic microengineering.

Tom

scapa · Jan 28, 2020

I'd be delighted with -1.5 secs in my Speedy. Love the watch but mine approximates time rather than strictly keeping it. I tend to treat it as a sundial that fits on my wrist.

mick_rad · Jan 28, 2020

I agree with the others, you're getting excellent accuracy for a non-COSC movement, and the drop in rate from advancing to retarding is due to the mechanism settling into use as Tom said. If it changes appreciably within a short amount of time (days) then I would be concerned! Enjoy!

Enginerd · Jan 29, 2020

Thanks for the replies everyone much appreciated! It is a new watch so yes that does make sense to me now what Tom is saying.

Also I'm considering buying a leather strap for the Speedy. Would anyone recommend Watchgecko? They seem to look quite nice.

Archer · Jan 29, 2020

VetPsychWars
If it's a new watch a couple months in, I wouldn't be concerned. Micropolishing happens as the train runs in and when the friction goes down, the amplitude goes up, and the rate will go down a smidge.

Mind you, many watchmakers will tell me I'm full of crap, but this is classic microengineering.

Tom

Yes, you are full of crap.

The idea that it's "normal" for a watch to change it's daily rate in one position by around 8.5 seconds in a month, simply from "running in" is completely nonsensical. No watch would maintain any tolerance for timekeeping of this were the case.

None of what you assert is "classical microengineering" has any truth to it.

Pivots are already polished at the factory, as are pinions, there's no additional wearing in that is going to change the timekeeping. The amplitude doesn't go up over the first few months in a new movement as you claim.

The idea of significant changes in timekeeping from "run in" is a complete myth. I've never experienced it with a new watch, hundreds of new movements I've put in watches, nor with watches that I've serviced - even those where I've replaced all the parts that would supposedly wear in. If any changes in timing or amplitude happen, it's usually within the first 24 hours after a service, and is mainly seen as a slight increase in balance amplitude - not enough to affect the actual timekeeping.

Cheers, Al

Enginerd · Jan 29, 2020

Archer
Yes, you are full of crap.

The idea that it's "normal" for a watch to change it's daily rate in one position by around 8.5 seconds in a month, simply from "running in" is completely nonsensical. No watch would maintain any tolerance for timekeeping of this were the case.

None of what you assert is "classical microengineering" has any truth to it.

Pivots are already polished at the factory, as are pinions, there's no additional wearing in that is going to change the timekeeping. The amplitude doesn't go up over the first few months in a new movement as you claim.

The idea of significant changes in timekeeping from "run in" is a complete myth. I've never experienced it with a new watch, hundreds of new movements I've put in watches, nor with watches that I've serviced - even those where I've replaced all the parts that would supposedly wear in. If any changes in timing or amplitude happen, it's usually within the first 24 hours after a service, and is mainly seen as a slight increase in balance amplitude - not enough to affect the actual timekeeping.

Cheers, Al

In your professional opinion Archer, should I send the watch back to omega to see if there is something amiss with the movement?

Cheers.

Archer · Jan 29, 2020

Completely up to you, but I'm not convinced in any way that there is something wrong based on what you have written so far.

If you want my advice, then follow this procedure:

1 - fully wind the watch, set the time against a known reliable time source, place it dial up for 24 hours, and note the gain or loss in that period.

2 - repeat the same steps above for dial down, crown up, crown down, crown left, and crown right* - make sure to wind the watch each time.

3 - come back and post the gains or losses for each position over 24 hours.

Then we can talk about meaningful data.

* - for the "vertical" positions, you may have to prop the watch up so it stays vertical.

Cheers, Al

Enginerd · Jan 29, 2020

Thanks Al,

I'll run this test then let you know the results.
Cheers, Ray

VetPsychWars · Jan 29, 2020

Archer
Yes, you are full of crap.

See? Told ya!

Then how come so many people show what they consider evidence of rate change that happens after some time passes? I'm willing to accept that not enough micro-polishing happens in a few weeks, and is not the cause. But micro-polishing is a thing and people not only believe in it, they do it to their tiny mechanical components.

Tom

wagudc · Jan 29, 2020

Enginerd
Hi Guys,

About a month ago I purchased the Speedmaster Moonwatch cal 1861. Current timekeeping dial up is - 1.5 sec/day. When I bought watch it was +7 sec/day. So it has gradually been losing time. It has already been back to omega to sort out a chrono second hand alignment issue. Since I've had it back it has been running - 1.5 sec/day Dial up other orientations are on average +2 sec/day. I'm aware the tolerance for this watch is +11 to - 1 so should I be concerned about this current timekeeping? Do you think its worth the hassle sending it back to omega again?

Thanks.

How do know that they did not regulate the watch when they adjusted the Chrono hand? When the watch is out of spec, consider taking it back. Until then, relax and enjoy!

VetPsychWars · Jan 29, 2020

Enginerd
Hi Guys,

About a month ago I purchased the Speedmaster Moonwatch cal 1861. Current timekeeping dial up is - 1.5 sec/day. When I bought watch it was +7 sec/day. So it has gradually been losing time. It has already been back to omega to sort out a chrono second hand alignment issue. Since I've had it back it has been running - 1.5 sec/day Dial up other orientations are on average +2 sec/day. I'm aware the tolerance for this watch is +11 to - 1 so should I be concerned about this current timekeeping? Do you think its worth the hassle sending it back to omega again?

Thanks.

I just re-read this.

That your watch is -1.5 sec/day dial up is meaningless when the other positions suggest positive. It's the average that matters with respect to your daily habits.

When you wear it for a week, what is the net gain or loss?

Tom

Duckie · Jan 29, 2020

VetPsychWars
I just re-read this.

That your watch is -1.5 sec/day dial up is meaningless when the other positions suggest positive. It's the average that matters with respect to your daily habits.

When you wear it for a week, what is the net gain or loss?

Tom

Mine slows down more when it's worn daily to settle at around +3 secs per day consistently which I'll take all day every day.
Off the wrist it runs at about +13 secs per day or so.
This clearly demonstrates the practical realities we all face with mechanical watches which he needs to understand.

-1.5 seconds is very manageable in practical terms and not worth any concern as long as it's relatively consistent, thus demonstrating a high degree of precision. IMO.
Obviously focusing on one position (dial up) is somewhat irrelevant.

Enginerd · Jan 30, 2020

It's not often I wear it for a full week as I work in an industrial engineering environment so I only wear it in the evenings and the weekend. Over the course of a weekend it gains about 5 seconds.

Thanks, Ray

Duckie · Jan 30, 2020

Enginerd
It's not often I wear it for a full week as I work in an industrial engineering environment so I only wear it in the evenings and the weekend. Over the course of a weekend it gains about 5 seconds.

Thanks, Ray

Great.
That's an excellent result and I would be inclined to enjoy it for what it is.

Archer · Jan 30, 2020

VetPsychWars
See? Told ya!

Then how come so many people show what they consider evidence of rate change that happens after some time passes? I'm willing to accept that not enough micro-polishing happens in a few weeks, and is not the cause. But micro-polishing is a thing and people not only believe in it, they do it to their tiny mechanical components.

Tom

Hi Tom,

I would certainly encourage you to do an analysis that proves your assertion, and present the evidence here. If you are able to prove your theory using real numbers, I will certainly consider revising my stance on this.

I would expect this to include surface finish measurements of pivots on new wheels, and the same wheels after an appropriate amount of run time (reflecting your theory of course). I will also expect appropriate performance data, so amplitude changes and timing changes over the same run time.

For me in the absence of such a study, I find it very difficult to believe that companies that spend the time and money they do to dial in watches to COSC and tighter tolerances, produce watches that will drift well out of those tolerances within a few weeks or months. This makes no sense as it would make any timing standard pretty much useless. No manufacturer that I have trained with has ever mentioned “run in” as a factor in timing, and it’s not reflected in any technical document or watchmaking text, and it was never mentioned in watchmaking school. So for this to be a real thing, the entire watch industry seems to be ignoring it completely. Personally I don’t find this very likely.

Yes, I’m aware that polishing occurs as part of the manufacturing process, and in fact I stated that quite clearly in my post. Pivots are also burnished, which is something I do regularly using a Jacot tool in a service situation. Burnishing is actually what would happen in use, rather than polishing (polishing uses abrasives where burnishing doesn’t).

I’m not offering any explanation for what people are experiencing, only presenting my experience over many years of working on movements, including production of my own watches using new movements, which have not had these timing changes from “running in” that people claim. If I had to guess, what people are seeing is simply the effect of positional variation when they change their wearing patterns without realizing it, but this is just a guess, since I don’t have enough data to draw any solid conclusions from anecdotal information presented on watch forums. The claims of timekeeping changes don’t often come with any useful information attached to them.

By all means please present a properly researched study, and I will be all ears...

Cheers, Al

Speedmaster Moonwatch losing time.

Enginerd

Foo2rama

WYO_Watch

Enginerd

Enginerd

VetPsychWars

scapa

mick_rad

Enginerd

Archer

Enginerd

Archer

Enginerd

VetPsychWars

wagudc

VetPsychWars

Duckie

Enginerd

Duckie

Archer

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