Speedmaster Moonwatch 321 Platinum

queriver · Jul 25, 2019

The core demand for the SS 321 will be people on OF who cherish the old 321 Speedmasters. Omega needs to ask themselves can they sell circa 2000 per year to OF types, or do they need to target the wider market. If they need to target wider, your average non-WIS that goes to their OB/AD on the back of seeing a George Clooney Speedmaster ad will not outlay a big premium for a SS 321 over a standard Speedy. For them an unrefined looking tool-watch 321 movement through the caseback is not a selling point and their eyes will glaze over as soon as a staff member starts on about the sacred 321 engine. So the SS 321 will require additional "embellishment" to attract those customers. But embellishment adds to the cost of an already expensive product and Omega risks starting to lose the OF 321 aficionado buyer as they price it higher because they will ask themselves, why buy an expensive resurrected 321 if I can buy a vintage 321 at a similar price point?

I look forward to finding out about the way Omega's brains trust markets the SS 321 story and where they price it. It's rare for a watch company to build a new product around resurrecting an old movement that was taken out of production 50 years ago and replaced with better technology. The Platinum 321 isn't comparable because of the very low production volume as well as unique features such as the lunar meteorite subdials.

Screwbacks · Jul 26, 2019

better wait, see and buy.

rominvicta · Jul 26, 2019

And mind you if wrongly priced that would surely kick back. Imagine SS priced at 20 k and in two year time market price closing at 10-12 k. If I were Omega I would surely try to avoid it. Instead of stripping down demand by creating an artificially high price better work on it, create a demand and price will settle high by itself.

queriver · Jul 26, 2019

Evitzee
Omega is not going to give away 321 based watches for cheap prices, it will be marketed as a premium product for discerning collectors, hence the super premium platinum version just announced and the yet to be released version in stainless steel.

rominvicta
So at the end you may be right and they may ask for ridiculous prices, claiming how difficult 321 is to be made (something I strongly doubt) but at the end they will just get another butt kick from the 99.9% of the market that has nothing to do with us. Ask yourself whether the average Chinese (as they combined with HK and Sing make close to 1/3 of global market) gives anything (just minding my words) to get an Omega chronograph in SS with 321 at 20 k USD while at that pricing level he/she may get a Daytona even at grey prices (and almost any other Rolex that is not PM, and in some cases even PM), IWC, JL, Cartier etc, even some entry level pieces of PP and ALS.

Agree the 321 is a product for collectors but TBH I can't deduce what the business case is for Omega resurrecting the 321 movement. The addressable market is primarily a small number of vintage Speedmaster aficionados. It's probably a more niche market than a forum of proctologists discussing bowel movements (sorry couldn't resist 😀, but I'm serious about the size comparison). The cost of setting up, staffing, training and operating a specialised handwork manufacture for these movements means the unit cost of production will be high, and we know the annual output will be very low. So if it won't be a significant profit centre for a company the size of Omega, why go to the trouble unless there is a bigger picture that eventually delivers a competitive ROI? The 321 is not bleeding edge technology they are willing to take a short term loss on while being developed. How do you grow demand for a known obsolete watch movement? Is this all about eventually get the ROI from service & repair work on the movement? Someone tell me what I'm missing.

rominvicta · Jul 26, 2019

queriver
It's probably a more niche market than a forum of proctologists discussing bowel movements (sorry couldn't resist 😀, but I'm serious about the size comparison)

Like you metaphor! ::psy::

eugeneandresson · Jul 26, 2019

Nothing less then 12321 £/$/CHF/EURO/BANANA's/Avocados for a SS 321 😉

queriver
Agree the 321 is a product for collectors but TBH I can't deduce what the business case is for Omega resurrecting the 321 movement. The addressable market is primarily a small number of vintage Speedmaster aficionados. It's probably a more niche market than a forum of proctologists discussing bowel movements (sorry couldn't resist 😀, but I'm serious about the size comparison). The cost of setting up, staffing, training and operating a specialised handwork manufacture for these movements means the unit cost of production will be high, and we know the annual output will be very low. So if it won't be a significant profit centre for a company the size of Omega, why go to the trouble unless there is a bigger picture that eventually delivers a competitive ROI? The 321 is not bleeding edge technology they are willing to take a short term loss on while being developed. How do you grow demand for a known obsolete watch movement? Is this all about eventually get the ROI from service & repair work on the movement? Someone tell me what I'm missing.

Maybe they actually do care about their heritage? If they didn't make a loss (so just covered the expense, but no huge profit) then this could be seen as a total exercise to 'strengthen the foundations of their heritage' and IMHO this makes vintage 321's even all that more hot (and now, no longer obsolete, and also serviceable due to part availability).

YY77 · Jul 26, 2019

Civic4982
$60k is hilarious for a Speedy in platinum on leather.

Can’t wait to see what the discount is.

There’s a lot of fancy precious metal and top end watches to compete against at that price point.

As for $20k for an SS 321. Not even sure what magic 8 ball was used to randomize a number out of thin air and stick to it if was written in stone brought down by Moses himself.

I wonder what you think of the price gap between the moonphase platinum vs steel, IMO this underwrites the claims the 321 SS is likely to be priced at 20k?

Martin_J_N · Jul 26, 2019

Civic4982
$60k is hilarious for a Speedy in platinum on leather.

Can’t wait to see what the discount is.

There’s a lot of fancy precious metal and top end watches to compete against at that price point.

As for $20k for an SS 321. Not even sure what magic 8 ball was used to randomize a number out of thin air and stick to it if was written in stone brought down by Moses himself.

For your information there is already a Platinum Speedmaster with a leather strap on the market for a fraction under $60k, there are no discounts, it is built to order.

Having a watch in a precious metal is a big achievement for many people, something that they work and save hard for, for others it is something they can afford because they have money through family or investments, why do you think that there are watches costing 6 times that amount available for sale now and have waiting lists.

For many wealthy watch enthusiasts having a Speedmaster in Platinum, with the legendary 321 movement, the movement that powered the watches that went to space and ultimately was carried on the surface of the moon, will be a grail watch, there will be no shortage of buyers, so expect to be on a waiting list if you want one.

As for the SS 321 being $20k, well no-one actually knows what the price will be, many like me hope (some will say dream) that it is less than half that figure but many OF members are far more experienced in these matters and their educated guess being watch collectors and enthusiasts for many many years is that the price is likely to be around the $20k mark.

If you don't like that no-one is forcing you to buy the watch, anyone who buys this watch whether it is priced at $15k, $20k or $25k will buy it because they want that watch, because of what it represents and the history that goes with it.

In the event that you don't wish to pay $60k for a Platinum 321 Moonwatch, or the estimated $20k for a SS 321 Moonwatch, then there is alway the legendary 1861 Moonwatch, readily available in dealers across the world possibly even for a discount if you ask nicely. A watch that commands respect wherever it goes.

queriver · Jul 26, 2019

eugeneandresson
Nothing less then 12321 £/$/CHF/EURO/BANANA's/Avocados for a SS 321 😉

Maybe they actually do care about their heritage? If they didn't make a loss (so just covered the expense, but no huge profit) then this could be seen as a total exercise to 'strengthen the foundations of their heritage' and IMHO this makes vintage 321's even all that more hot (and now, no longer obsolete, and also serviceable due to part availability).

I understand the heritage preserving/marketing/experience/etc., angle. The Omega Museum is an example. But talking of investment, coming from a background where business units need to compete internally for capital and, with that mindset, and if it were my own money, I'd be looking seriously at whether a 321 manufacture is the best way to portray the foundations/heritage of Omega, compared with say extending the Museum to be "virtual" to give everyone around the world the experience; and that's just one example for how a small amount of capital could be invested to achieve a heritage outcome (if that's mainly what the new 321 is about). The vintage 321 aficionados are already onside with Omega and appreciate the heritage so I doubt they need a lot of money spent on them.

BTW: 1. You have 'strengthen the foundations of their heritage' in quotes. Is this a term Omega have mentioned to you regarding the 321?
2. Happy to pay AUD12321 if you pay 12321CHF. 😉 Bananas are cheap, so even better.

eugeneandresson · Jul 26, 2019

queriver
BTW: 1. You have 'strengthen the foundations of their heritage' in quotes. Is this a term Omega have mentioned to you regarding the 321?

Absolutely not 😀

queriver
2. Happy to pay AUD12321 if you pay 12321CHF. 😉 Bananas are cheap, so even better.

Never mentioned AUD 😜

STANDY · Jul 26, 2019

EricCsN
Sounds like the 321 SS appearance is going to be in the same time window as the 50 anniversary snoopy .

So where is there anything about a 50th snoopy from Omega. ?

rominvicta · Jul 26, 2019

STANDY
So where is there anything about a 50th snoopy from Omega. ?

What do you really say?

Martin_J_N · Jul 26, 2019

STANDY
So where is there anything about a 50th snoopy from Omega. ?

I've seen nothing other than the 'hopes' of people on these forums suggesting that 2020 is the 50th year of Apollo 13 and therefore by default is the hope that Omega will do a 50th LE, and make it a Snoopy edition. Now taz101 and hkhobo on the A11 50th Any in the wild yet? thread claim that they are on the waiting lists, both in pole position in their respective AD or OB, see link below.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/ome...ny-in-the-wild-yet.97752/page-43#post-1292310

Now, whilst there is nothing formal from Omega about an SS 321 (at least I've not read anything from Omega but could have missed it), or an A13 50th, the pot can be stirred by suggesting that a SS321 and an A13 50th LE could be one and the same watch ::stirthepot::

😁.

As stated I have nothing to suggest that either watches are going to be available but if they were......................................................😀

EricCsN · Jul 26, 2019

Omega marketing wouldn’t last 20 minutes without making an announcement of yet another limited edition, you think they will pass on these obvious ones

STANDY · Jul 26, 2019

So it’s all rumours on another Snoopy. 👍

And Apollo 11th wasn’t a 321 but Apollo 13th could be 👍

Martin_J_N · Jul 26, 2019

EricCsN
Omega marketing wouldn’t last 20 minutes without making an announcement of yet another limited edition, you think they will pass on these obvious ones

I am too new to all this LE business having only really got the watch bug this year although my first Omega was in 2010, so I can only try to learn from those more experienced in these matters.

So in answer to your question, no I don't think that Omega will pass on the opportunities, not sure what the SS 321 could be a LE of, maybe it won't be, maybe it will just be a new watch but at a premium price, maybe any further LE's will be based on the new 3861 movement from the A11 50th.

Martin_J_N · Jul 26, 2019

STANDY
So it’s all rumours on another Snoopy. 👍

And Apollo 11th wasn’t a 321 but Apollo 13th could be 👍

Who knows? I certainly don't I am far too new to all this to have learnt how to second guess Omega. Me, I just occasionally stir the pot when I think that it could do with it.

But, in all seriousness the 321 may now just be a watch line all on its own, no LE's just a premium priced watch. Omega's future Speedmaster LE's could possibly now use the 3861 movement as used in the A11 50th?

Archer · Jul 26, 2019

eugeneandresson
Maybe they actually do care about their heritage? If they didn't make a loss (so just covered the expense, but no huge profit) then this could be seen as a total exercise to 'strengthen the foundations of their heritage' and IMHO this makes vintage 321's even all that more hot (and now, no longer obsolete, and also serviceable due to part availability).

If they didn't remove so much of their "heritage" when they service a vintage watch, I might be able to take this argument seriously. But until they stop doing so, it's nothing but marketing...

Several years ago on a US TV shows the president of Omega at that time was asked how many watches they make, and his answer was approx. 2000 per day, so this 321 of 2000 per year is the proverbial drop in the bucket.

I can't say why specifically they are doing this (other than the obvious as is their raison d'etre as a corporation - make profits for shareholders), but my guess is that if these are going to be difficult to find, they will get some business from people who may be possibly looking for a 321 model, and when they find out it's too much or they can't get one, they will be offered a regular Speedy in it's place. So there will be sales generated of regular Speedmasters from this, sort of a halo effect...

eugeneandresson · Jul 26, 2019

Archer
If they didn't remove so much of their "heritage" when they service a vintage watch, I might be able to take this argument seriously. But until they stop doing so, it's nothing but marketing...

Several years ago on a US TV shows the president of Omega at that time was asked how many watches they make, and his answer was approx. 2000 per day, so this 321 of 2000 per year is the proverbial drop in the bucket.

I can't say why specifically they are doing this (other than the obvious as is their raison d'etre as a corporation - make profits for shareholders), but my guess is that if these are going to be difficult to find, they will get some business from people who may be possibly looking for a 321 model, and when they find out it's too much or they can't get one, they will be offered a regular Speedy in it's place. So there will be sales generated of regular Speedmasters from this, sort of a halo effect...

... I knew you were going to comment in some way...I honestly even started to write 'I bet Archer will comment on this' but then erased it ...

My first word was Maybe ... which includes the case of maybe not too. But its as you say ... 2000 is a drip in the bucket (watch and profit wise) ... so maybe they do care about their heritage ... maybe they will use it to sell regular moonwatches as you say ... I heard (when I asked Mr JC Monanchon directly, face to face) that people with Omega parts account will get access to 321 parts (but that too is a maybe until you see it happen) ... maybe there are many other nefarious reasons we don't have the imagination to come up with ... time will tell.

queriver · Jul 26, 2019

@Archer Do you think one reason Omega is creating the 321 manufacture might be that it will serve the dual purpose of being a training centre for apprentices working alongside Omega’s most senior watchmakers who will make the 321s? That would seem to make sense.

Speedmaster Moonwatch 321 Platinum

queriver

Screwbacks

rominvicta

queriver

rominvicta

eugeneandresson

YY77

Martin_J_N

queriver

eugeneandresson

STANDY

rominvicta

Martin_J_N

EricCsN

STANDY

Martin_J_N

Martin_J_N

Archer

eugeneandresson

queriver

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