Speedmaster: Does positioning overnight affect the accuracy?

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Yes - the Cal. 321 is allowed to have an average rate of -1 to +16, and the tolerances behind that (Delta and isochronism) are also much larger.
Blimey! That was a quick answer!👍

-1 to +16 sounds like a healthy tolerance Al. I've noticed that my 105.012-65 (which I wind and wear on a Sunday) occasionally gains a bit more than +16 over 24 hours. (It was given a full service at Swiss Time Services UK in 2016).

That leads me to ask you one further question:

If a 321 were running at a tolerance between +16 and +30 would that indicate a problem requiring work on the mechanism or could it be corrected with an adjustment?

Many thanks for your help Al.
 
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Pretty solid stuff from Al! It took me almost a month to figure out how my watch runs with different resting positions
So what did you find out?
 
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If a 321 were running at a tolerance between +16 and +30 would that indicate a problem requiring work on the mechanism or could it be corrected with an adjustment?

Maybe. These tolerances are for testing done under controlled conditions in a shop, and using a timing machine that is only measuring over a short period of time. So the first thing to keep in mind is that the tolerance of -1 to +16 is an average, and it's only measured over 3 positions. The numbers that make up this average are given equal weight during testing, so it assumes that the watch will spend equal time in all those positions. So this does not always reflect what you see on your wrist.

So obviously your watch can be positioned in many more positions than just 3 when you are wearing it, so it's possible that positions that are not being measured may have an error that is quite large, and if your watch spends significant time in one of those positions, that will affect the average that you see on the wrist. This is why I always test every watch I service over 6 positions, no matter if the brand says it should be tested for just 3 or 5. The watch can be worn in an infinite number of positions when worn, but 6 will give the watchmaker a very good idea of how the watch will perform in my experience.

Also there is another set of tolerances behind that average number, and those are what I mentioned above - the Delta and the isochronism error.

So on the 321, Omega allows the Delta (the difference between the fastest and slowest position measured) to be as much as 20 seconds when measured at full wind. This means that if one position is say zero gain or loss, that the other two can be -10 and +10, and all readings would be within tolerances. But it could also mean that the average is on the high end at +15, and that means the individual readings that make up that average could be something like 5, 10, and 25. So in one particular position the watch will run at +25, so again if it happens to spend a lot of time in that position, it will run faster than the allowed average, but would still be in tolerance.

Note that Omega also has tolerances at 24 hours after full wind, and there the Delta is allowed to be as much as 30 seconds. So as the mainspring winds down, they allow for the accuracy to drift. So the first example above I gave where the average is zero, now the three readings could be 0, -15, and +15.

If you take all this into consideration, you can see that there could easily be a watch that is fully within tolerances, and running very close to +30 per day. Of course if yours runs consistently +30, I would look into getting it regulated if that is a concern.

I know you had the watch serviced at STS, but I don't know if they gave you any timing data. I always include this in the documentation that I provide, and I also let the customers know what positions run faster or slower so they know what resting positions to use without having to spend the time figuring that out through experimentation. I base this on real world tests, not the timing machine results, because I test the watches by letting them sit in each of the 6 positions for 24 hours each, and note the gain or loss each day.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al
 
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If you are asking if letting the watch sit for short periods of time will affect performance, with all else being equal, no it won't.
Cheers, Al
What about letting a watch sit for long periods of time without winding? Like a year or more? Asking for a friend, of course.😗
 
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What about letting a watch sit for long periods of time without winding? Like a year or more? Asking for a friend, of course.😗

There's no need to keep a watch wound unless you are using it...
 
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Al - I leave my Speedmasters in the watchbox untouched for many days between each use. Is it normal that they are always many hours away from the correct time setting when I pick them up again? Should I be concerned that they are no longer 'ticking' either? 😎
 
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Maybe. These tolerances are for testing done under controlled conditions in a shop, and using a timing machine that is only measuring over a short period of time. So the first thing to keep in mind is that the tolerance of -1 to +16 is an average, and it's only measured over 3 positions. The numbers that make up this average are given equal weight during testing, so it assumes that the watch will spend equal time in all those positions. So this does not always reflect what you see on your wrist.

So obviously your watch can be positioned in many more positions than just 3 when you are wearing it, so it's possible that positions that are not being measured may have an error that is quite large, and if your watch spends significant time in one of those positions, that will affect the average that you see on the wrist. This is why I always test every watch I service over 6 positions, no matter if the brand says it should be tested for just 3 or 5. The watch can be worn in an infinite number of positions when worn, but 6 will give the watchmaker a very good idea of how the watch will perform in my experience.

Also there is another set of tolerances behind that average number, and those are what I mentioned above - the Delta and the isochronism error.

So on the 321, Omega allows the Delta (the difference between the fastest and slowest position measured) to be as much as 20 seconds when measured at full wind. This means that if one position is say zero gain or loss, that the other two can be -10 and +10, and all readings would be within tolerances. But it could also mean that the average is on the high end at +15, and that means the individual readings that make up that average could be something like 5, 10, and 25. So in one particular position the watch will run at +25, so again if it happens to spend a lot of time in that position, it will run faster than the allowed average, but would still be in tolerance.

Note that Omega also has tolerances at 24 hours after full wind, and there the Delta is allowed to be as much as 30 seconds. So as the mainspring winds down, they allow for the accuracy to drift. So the first example above I gave where the average is zero, now the three readings could be 0, -15, and +15.

If you take all this into consideration, you can see that there could easily be a watch that is fully within tolerances, and running very close to +30 per day. Of course if yours runs consistently +30, I would look into getting it regulated if that is a concern.

I know you had the watch serviced at STS, but I don't know if they gave you any timing data. I always include this in the documentation that I provide, and I also let the customers know what positions run faster or slower so they know what resting positions to use without having to spend the time figuring that out through experimentation. I base this on real world tests, not the timing machine results, because I test the watches by letting them sit in each of the 6 positions for 24 hours each, and note the gain or loss each day.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al
Al, which are the three positions measured by omega and what is the delta for a 1861 calibre?
 
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Al, which are the three positions measured by omega and what is the delta for a 1861 calibre?

Dial up, crown down, and crown left.

Delta at full wind is allowed to be 15 seconds, and 24 hours after full wind 20 seconds.
 
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Dial up, crown down, and crown left.

Delta at full wind is allowed to be 15 seconds, and 24 hours after full wind 20 seconds.
Thx! So she can run 20 seconds fast after 24 hours and still be within tolerance if the other positions are zero. Right?
 
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I know you had the watch serviced at STS, but I don't know if they gave you any timing data. I always include this in the documentation that I provide, and I also let the customers know what positions run faster or slower so they know what resting positions to use without having to spend the time figuring that out through experimentation. I base this on real world tests, not the timing machine results, because I test the watches by letting them sit in each of the 6 positions for 24 hours each, and note the gain or loss each day.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al

What a fascinating read! Thankyou very much for taking the time to explain that in such an understandable way Al.

I'm sure other members, as well as myself, will benefit from reading that information. I like the idea of a 'real world 6 position test'. Seems to be closer to the multi position, real life, situation of a wrist watch won every day. STS didn't include any timing data wit my service letter. I did phone and ask them (prompted by one or two questions from another member of this forum). They told me that if I had any concerns, I should take the watch back to them for inspection.

The watch seems to run pretty well, when I wind it and wear it, so I haven't done so. The STS 1 year guarantee has expired now, so I may get Simon Freese to check it over before it goes on sale next year. Just to make sure everything is OK.

Anyway, thanks again. Very helpful, and one of the most interesting posts I've read during my time on this forum.
 
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So what did you find out?
My speedy runs slower in crown up position, and slightly faster when rested dial up and on wrist. However my seiko runs faster dial down, and runs slow on wrist. Like many said, it's watch specific 😉
 
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Dial up, crown down, and crown left.

Delta at full wind is allowed to be 15 seconds, and 24 hours after full wind 20 seconds.

Hey man what position is “crown left”
 
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Hey man what position is “crown left”

Hey man, it's when you are looking at the dial of the watch, and have it oriented so the crown is on the left.

Peace brah….
 
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Hey man, it's when you are looking at the dial of the watch, and have it oriented so the crown is on the left.

Peace brah….
Cannot click like enough times.
Edited:
 
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When I first got my FOIS, I downloaded a timing app and kept meticulous records on positional variation during the night and how it would affect accuracy. I would then religiously place my watch in the position that gave me the best accuracy and kept taking measurements daily for months. Satisfied that my watch ran well within its specs, I now just wear and enjoy it. Haven't used the timing app in a looong time and I think I am happier for it.
 
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When I first got my FOIS, I downloaded a timing app and kept meticulous records on positional variation during the night and how it would affect accuracy. I would then religiously place my watch in the position that gave me the best accuracy and kept taking measurements daily for months. Satisfied that my watch ran well within its specs, I now just wear and enjoy it. Haven't used the timing app in a looong time and I think I am happier for it.
 
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I now just wear and enjoy it. Haven't used the timing app in a looong time and I think I am happier for it.

I think that's the key, I certainly want a watch that's keeping good time, but I'm not going to be too upset by a few seconds here or there. I wear a watch because I like wearing a watch and because I hate when people check their phones for the time during a meeting. I don't wear a watch in situations where my life depends on it or it's critical for my job so a little bit of time here or there isn't a big deal. For me it's about understanding if I'm gaining or losing more time then usual, and trying to determine if it's the sign of something worse to come.

When I've had watches serviced by Archer in the past he's provided a wonderful break down of all the work done including recommendations on which position keeps the best time.
 
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Hey man, it's when you are looking at the dial of the watch, and have it oriented so the crown is on the left.

Peace brah….

Thanks Al!

Any tips on position and for how long when you get a new Speedy? I’m playing with it each night to see the gain/loss overnight but any method better than that?
 
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Unless you have a timing machine and can measure rates in real time, the best way is to experiment.

Cheers, Al
 
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Your Speedmaster sounds pretty close to mine in terms of rate. It's about a month old and runs around 8 seconds fast per day. Of course, I have no idea when it was manufactured, so who knows the "actual" age, but it was purchased new. I don't have any plans to tempt fate and have Omega or anyone else adjust it. It's operating within the manufacturer's specifications, and gaining a few seconds per day is not a problem, particularly when the seconds are displayed on a small sub-dial with hashes as 5-second intervals. Crown down seems to slow mine to around 6 seconds, but your watch might behave differently. I'm assuming you're winding the watch daily (apologies if you mentioned that and I missed it)?