Speedmaster Central Minute Coaxial?

Inkwell.box · May 5, 2022

Hello all. Do you believe Omega will ever release any speedmaster with a central minute totalizer again? I know there are multiple coaxial speedmasters with GMT and split seconds, so why not replace those hands for a central minute? The demise of the Lemania 5100 has obviously been discussed greatly, and I think more than a few would love to see a modern coaxial replacement of it’s function (rather than a recreation of reincarnation of it). It seems from many on here (regardless of opinion on if Omega would revive the holy grail) would definitely be interested in seeing omega bring out something like this, even for a limited run. To me, it’d be the ultimate speedmaster. Would it really be too hard to tweak the Omega Caliber 3603 or 3612 where we’d have a central minute totalizer over the GMT or split seconds? I can only image it’d be more popular than those movements, but I may very well be wrong.
Extra question for those who think it wouldn’t ever happen: is it possible a contributing factor to your reasoning is that Swatch Group sort of “sided” with Valjoux over Lemania, where the 5100 and associated Central Minute function has a bad taste in their mouth now in relation to the Valjoux 7750? Thanks for humoring my interest.

Ron_W · May 7, 2022

They already did a handwound and Chronoscope version, so why not ?

dsio · May 7, 2022

This is actually a really useful thing if done right, I had a TAG Heuer F1 quartz chronograph as my main watch back when I was sailing competitively and it was extremely useful as I needed good visibility or how many minutes were left until race start and a subdial was just too small.

It has been quite a while since Omega last did a regatta timer with the circles on the dial or a similar style Apnea diver too which were really cool watches with a minute display somewhat unique to Omega, I’d love to see them appear on a calibre 9xxx series movement.

Inkwell.box · May 9, 2022

Absolutely spot on. Beautiful pieces by the way @dsio. Sailing, or operating any vehicle, I can’t find myself wanting to look at a tiny 30 minute dial and trying to figure out if we’re at minute 15 or 45 with the hour dial... absolute pain. Plus they could bring back the fantastic arrow hand for a 24 hour dial.
I am wanting a watch to aid in my multi-day overlanding tours, and would strongly prefer a non-digital chronometer with tachymeter, central minute totalizer, automatic movement, and a 24 hour dial.

sweets · May 11, 2022

The simple fact is that it was such a desired complication that Sinn, Damasko (arguably together?), Tutima and others have re-created 5100 central minute chronos to replace the demised 5100. This doesn't count DD and LJP modules that can also do it.
Omega has been very innovative in recent times, rolling out all sorts of new movement tech, arguably more than any other major watch manufacturer.
So I think it might. But there is no way they will use the 5100-style Delrin chassis. Omega is all about higher value scales, so such lowly materials will never be used in a "true" Omega again (recent MoonSwatch aside).
Perhaps a development of the Lemania 1340 movement, such as Breguet uses in the Type XXI?

cvalue13 · May 11, 2022

Inkwell.box
and a 24 hour dial.

have you (between here and other of your posts) conflated the 5100’s 24hr AM/PM indicator (which is a ‘dumb’ hand slaved to the central 12hr hand) vs a 24hr GMT-type complication (which not only is independent of the central time hand, but ideally adds other functionality such as a jumping 12hr hand, non-hacking adjustment, etc.)?

If it’s the latter, it seems you’re not “needing” a Lemania 5100-like watch but instead more in the ballpark of a cal.911 flightmaster.

A revival of something like a Flightmaster would really be something (unavailability of the name notwithstanding).

Inkwell.box · May 11, 2022

cvalue13
If it’s the latter, it seems you’re not “needing” a Lemania 5100-like watch but instead more in the ballpark of a cal.911 flightmaster.

Yes, I see what you are meaning. Though at the end of the day, I’d like the functionality of a 5100 with the central minute hand (instead of a central GMT), and 24hr subdial with GMT (and other non “dumb” capabilities you described) complications. The 3603 used in the Speedmaster HB-SIA is pretty much a flightmaster reissue but I absolutely don’t need the GMT as a central hand nor want the minute totalizer as an unusable 30 min subdial. Reversed (central minute + gmt subdial) would be so much better for long distance and multi day off-road travel (overlanding) where you don’t want to rely on a digital device. I have reserved the Ineos Grenadier which arrives next year in the US, and I want a watch to match 😉

sweets · May 11, 2022

Look at the design of the Eberhard Diascope (from their Cheftain, Frecce Tricolori and Champion ranges). I have the former. It loses the date at 3, and replaces it with a separately setable GMT hand. This is the Lemania 5195 movement, unique to Eberhard. Really functional.

Here is mine

Chronograph at 2 min 25 secs, time 9:12:46, GMT set at time +1 hr.
Perfect.

Ron_W · May 11, 2022

That is a really useful set up , nice watch !

cvalue13 · May 11, 2022

Inkwell.box
Though at the end of the day, I’d like the functionality of a 5100 with the central minute hand (instead of a central GMT), and 24hr subdial with GMT (and other non “dumb” capabilities you described) complications.

Inkwell.box
Reversed (central minute + gmt subdial) would be so much better for long distance and multi day off-road travel (overlanding) where you don’t want to rely on a digital device.

Not at all to disagree with what you want, but instead to point out something about GMT watches that is working against you:

In a GMT watch, the GMT/24hr hand is the primary time-telling hand. It is set to a universal time standard for reasons of being the primary reference time as one otherwise moves between temporary “local” times that are fleeting.

Accordingly, GMT complication watches tend to visually respect the centrality of the GMT hand by being a prominent, legible hand.

Distinct from GMT complications are a smattering of so-called “dual time” watches that happen to display two time zones. Sometimes one of these two time zones is displayed in 24hr format, but that alone rarely provides full GMT functionality - instead the 24hr format is used as one solution to the AM/PM conundrum (the other approach being a second 12hr dial with some AM/PM indicator).

In any event, since you seem to be asking (at times) not only “why does no one make a central minute chronometer” but also “which also has a GMT sub-dial” I think the latter answer probably deserves clarification.

Do you actually seek a GMT function, or instead just a second time zone? Really unsure if overlanding utilizes/requires a universal time standard?

Inkwell.box · May 11, 2022

cvalue13
you seem to be asking (at times) not only “why does no one make a central minute chronometer” but also “which also has a GMT sub-dial”

cvalue13
Do you actually seek a GMT function, or instead just a second time zone? Really unsure if overlanding utilizes/requires a universal time standard?

That is a great great point, I appreciate your insight into my misunderstanding of GMT vs dual time zone. Indeed I am looking for dual time zone, where the main hands are representing my location, and one at the destination location (or location of another party). I should also clarify that it indeed is second in priority to having a central minute totalizer and tachymeter. Off-road, being able to map the average time and average speed between certain distances that are more difficult to cross can be very useful to other drivers in planning and preparation before attempting a new route.

Inkwell.box · May 11, 2022

sweets
Look at the design of the Eberhard Diascope

That indeed is a gorgeous piece! If there were a modern speedmaster take on that with date + better water resistancy in 42mm, that’d take the cake.

cvalue13 · May 11, 2022

Inkwell.box
That is a great great point, I appreciate your insight into my misunderstanding of GMT vs dual time zone. Indeed I am looking for dual time zone, where the main hands are representing my location, and one at the destination location (or location of another party).

To be honest, in some watches, it can be a distinction *almost* without a difference, so no foul in missing the nuance. (To me, the distinction between a GMT complication vs a dual-time in 24hr format turns on whether the watch also does or does not have GMT-specific flourishes like a jumping “local time” 12hr hand, a non-hacking time setting for the “local time” 12hr hand, etc.).

Well, if you’re willing to lose the dual-time functionality for the central chronograph, it seems like your REAL limitation becomes the water resistance metric. Because obviously there are many great vintage Lemania-based central chrono watches out there, such as all the Omega cal.1040/1041s

Inkwell.box · May 11, 2022

cvalue13
obviously there are many great vintage Lemania-based central chrono watches out there, such as all the Omega cal.1040/1041s

That is very true, I could opt for a vintage piece if I’m OK with less water resistance and no second time zone. Though it is odd that no modern watch seems to have a central minute totalizer and a tachymeter (let alone dual time zone, hacking, date, coaxial, column wheel, etc.). I feel a certain level of wariness about a vintage watch as my primary tool watch.
It’d just be nice to see a modern automatic speedmaster with a central minute, 24hr subdial, and date alone. But I’d melt if there were dual time zone capability.

cvalue13 · May 11, 2022

https://www.watchesandculture.org/forum/en/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-central-minutes-chronograph/

Inkwell.box · May 11, 2022

Seems like it was very popular, and then left at a height of its usefulness rather than a lack of popularity? Is it a lack of demand that stops it from coming back? I can’t imagine it’d be less popular than a modern split seconds that omega has made in the last 10 years. Maybe they read these forums and will give it a go *shrug*

Ron_W · May 12, 2022

Inkwell.box
Seems like it was very popular, and then left at a height of its usefulness rather than a lack of popularity? Is it a lack of demand that stops it from coming back? I can’t imagine it’d be less popular than a modern split seconds that omega has made in the last 10 years. Maybe they read these forums and will give it a go *shrug*

The Sinn pilot 103 UTC is somewhat like your wish list, a chronograph and a 12Hr second timezone smaler hand, but no 12 HR sub dial and you need an extra tachy insert as it comes with a countdown insert.

https://www.sinn.de/en/Modell/103_Ti_UTC_IFR.htm

Inkwell.box · May 13, 2022

Ron_W
The Sinn pilot 103 UTC is somewhat like your wish list

Thanks for the suggestion! I think having a central minute totalizer is essential for me however. A second time zone feature would just be an added benefit for the 24 hour subdial (as a 24 hour subdial has been the popular choice to replace the 30 min totalizer subdial).

Ron_W · May 14, 2022

I agree, central minute is the most legible. So that means you need 2 watches, 1 chrono and 1 GMT, and as you have 2 wrist ( i hope ) this problem is now solved 👍

ConElPueblo · May 14, 2022

Inkwell.box
That indeed is a gorgeous piece! If there were a modern speedmaster take on that with date + better water resistancy in 42mm, that’d take the cake.

...How much WR do you need? 😕

Speedmaster Central Minute Coaxial?

Inkwell.box

Ron_W

dsio

Inkwell.box

sweets

cvalue13

Inkwell.box

sweets

Ron_W

cvalue13

Inkwell.box

Inkwell.box

cvalue13

Inkwell.box

cvalue13

Inkwell.box

Ron_W

Inkwell.box

Ron_W

ConElPueblo

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