Sotheby’s Lot 38 105.002-62, Aug 23 update; AKA the stories photos tell us

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I love it. Blame a group of dedicated hobbyists and their enthusiasm for the ethical compromise and/or incompetence of a company doing business since 1744.

I realize I´m among enemies here. Sad. @M'Bob, don´t worry I will be out of here very soon, so you will have your playground to yourself. @Archer don´t worry there won´t be anymore sales threads from me, so buy in confidence 😁

Oh, and BTW, if a company has been in business since 1744, what does that tell you about their seriousness? 😗
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@marturx - I have no animosity towards you, I don’t consider you an enemy. I have no clue to your relationship or history with the other members from whom you have apparently taken offense. I always appreciate a counterpoint in any argument and am often the antagonist. I got so heavily involved in this thread because it speaks directly to my profession- professional photography. Unfortunately, the last 20 years has not been kind to the “professionalism” in professional photography. Perhaps this is a statement about the slipping standards for a field that was once considered a bearer of truth. There has always been a fine-art element to the craft, but documentary photography was supposed to always be the torch-bearer for neutrality. I understand that Sotheby’s is a business and their goal is the yield the highest profit for their clients- but their reputation is based on principles of neutrality- the auction house is not supposed to sway the results of an auction.
If the new world order is interpretive imaging for sales purposes at auction-then truly, Caveat Emptor.
 
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I realize I´m among enemies here. Sad. @M'Bob, don´t worry I will be out of here very soon, so you will have your playground to yourself. @Archer don´t worry there won´t be anymore sales threads from me, so buy in confidence 😁

Oh, and BTW, if a company has been in business since 1744, what does that tell you about their seriousness? 😗

i have no idea the back story here with the different participants. .. and I have *zero* dog in the hunt here . . but I cannot fathom aany conclusion other than

a) the photographs in the catalog did not come close to accurately representing the watch in the auction and
b) the photographs in the catalog have *1* purpose--namely, to to accurately represent what is for sale in the auction for bidders that cannot see the watch in person
and on an unrelated note, despite a), its still a beautiful watch but that doesn't absolve Sotheby's of a major, major fail here.

any other conclusion is. . frankly . . . Trumpian

i don't think there would be litigation if this was a piece of art. . the piece would be returned and I am sure the auction house would reverse the sale. i am guessing they would do that in this case. . but since the buyer is happy with the actual watch and the price why bother with the headache ?
 
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I realize I´m among enemies here. Sad. @M'Bob, don´t worry I will be out of here very soon, so you will have your playground to yourself. @Archer don´t worry there won´t be anymore sales threads from me, so buy in confidence 😁

Oh, and BTW, if a company has been in business since 1744, what does that tell you about their seriousness? 😗

Among enemies? That implies that either @Archer or I have some sort of pre-meditated agenda to call you out without regard to the content of your posts. What you're doing is denying responsibility for saying anything that could be contested. So there is no confusion on your part: I have nothing against you personally. If you make comments that I find questionable, I am going to respond, and if you detect more than disagreement or a severe eye brow raise, that's on you.
 
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Oh, and BTW, if a company has been in business since 1744, what does that tell you about their seriousness?

It tells me they have been around long enough to know better.
 
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Among enemies? That implies that either @Archer or I have some sort of pre-meditated agenda to call you out without regard to the content of your posts. What you're doing is denying responsibility for saying anything that could be contested. So there is no confusion on your part: I have nothing against you personally. If you make comments that I find questionable, I am going to respond, and if you detect more than disagreement or a severe eye brow raise, that's on you.


Ok Bob, so let us agree upon that we disagree, and I don’t want to debate with you anymore, OK?

If you take responsibility to your postings. I will stand by my posts

Simple as that
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I realize I´m among enemies here. Sad. @M'Bob, don´t worry I will be out of here very soon, so you will have your playground to yourself. @Archer don´t worry there won´t be anymore sales threads from me, so buy in confidence 😁

Oh, and BTW, if a company has been in business since 1744, what does that tell you about their seriousness? 😗

If you consider your potential buyers here to be enemies, that's up to you I guess. I do agree it's sad.

I can't imagine I'm alone here in not being super excited to buy from someone who says that watch photos don't have to reflect the actual condition of the watch, as you have said. It's not about having "very high standards" it's about being honest regarding the condition of the watch. To me (and I'm sure most here) this is a very basic requirement of a seller...

It tells me they have been around long enough to know better.

You beat me to it. 👍
 
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That is a very, very sad statement coming from you @Archer 🙁

I have always thought highly of you as a professional watchmaker and contributor to this forum, and now you’re questioning my reputation as a seller on this forum? On what ground?

My comment regarding sales post were because you were implying that I should be decisive in my sales posts because I defended Sothebys photos in their Speedy sale.

As far I as recall, you were very pleased with the watch you bought from me, and I’m 100% positive that there are not one single disappointed buyer of a watch from me on here. And I have been around since 2012

And, as I stated, I won’t be selling here no more, so why the need of your comment?
 
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I know the OP here and he is a straight shooter. As a seller I know photos carry a lot of weight especially with people buying sight unseen and is their only real analysis of the item. With that being said it is up to the the auction house to provide high quality descriptions and set expectations so buyers can comfortably bid large sums of money.

I get their job is to sell but if burning a client who expected more because the photos mislead them is the way they want to do business then that is a horrible short sighted business model. I’ve been to Sotheby auctions a few times and the condition reports are far less impressive than the other auction big names.

No need to argue here as many of those bickering are good people I’ve never had issues with so I hope all parties can agree to disagree but hopefully take away some valuable info/lessons from this thread.

Happy Sunday.
 
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Silly me - I thought photos were to provide an accurate representation of the item I'm buying, if I can't see it in person.

Puts a whole new perspective on some sales threads I suppose...

I´m not quite with you here @Archer what is it you are implying?[/QUOTE]

Hi everyone, I’m not a moderator but I find this thread is getting needlessly out of hand and personal and nasty without reason, and very unfairly.

@marturx was talking about « brokers », and about an entity whose sole existence is to market and sell — to impugne individual hobbyists here, on that basis really seems unfair.

I for one very much appreciated @marturx’s help getting a watch from Scandinavia which he did without knowing me and by pure courtesy and I think of him as very kind and trustworthy.

I think one can disagree and debate without making ad hominem attacks.
 
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That is a very, very sad statement coming from you @Archer 🙁

I have always thought highly of you as a professional watchmaker and contributor to this forum, and now you’re questioning my reputation as a seller on this forum? On what ground?

My comment regarding sales post were because you were implying that I should be decisive in my sales posts because I defended Sothebys photos in their Speedy sale.

As far I as recall, you were very pleased with the watch you bought from me, and I’m 100% positive that there are not one single disappointed buyer of a watch from me on here. And I have been around since 2012

And, as I stated, I won’t be selling here no more, so why the need of your comment?

The watch I bought from you years ago as a gift for my wife was as advertised, and I was pleased with it as I have said previously. This is why it's so surprising to me that you are so adamant in defending what has been done in this auction, saying this is the norm and to expect something different (accurate representation in photos) is something extraordinary. In my view and apparently many others here it's not - it's what's expected.

I don't know why you are saying people here are enemies, or why you are saying you don't plan to sell here any longer - is this simply because people have disagreed with your stance? It seems like an extreme overreaction to a difference of opinion. The whole thing is very puzzling.
 
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As @Archer said: "I thought photos were to provide an accurate representation of the item I'm buying, if I can't see it in person"

The thing is, this is not all that difficult to accomplish. You don't have to be a photographer or a watch expert. You don't need to use an expensive camera or have access to sophisticated processing equipment.

A decent phone camera, some good natural light, a cheap pop up light box, and maybe a bit of expert advice are all you need.

But don't forget the most important thing: A desire and intention to produce photographs that actually look like the item on sale.
 
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As @Archer said: "I thought photos were to provide an accurate representation of the item I'm buying, if I can't see it in person"

The thing is, this is not all that difficult to accomplish. You don't have to be a photographer or a watch expert. You don't need to use an expensive camera or have access to sophisticated processing equipment.

A decent phone camera, some good natural light, a cheap pop up light box, and maybe a bit of expert advice are all you need.

But don't forget the most important thing: A desire and intention to produce photographs that actually look like the item on sale.

Or how about.. A decent iPhone?

Don't know why anyone is wasting words defending sothebys and the indefensible
 
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I mean, is anyone actually surprised by this? Shortsighted maybe but so are all watch auctions lately, imo.
 
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The watch I bought from you years ago as a gift for my wife was as advertised, and I was pleased with it as I have said previously. This is why it's so surprising to me that you are so adamant in defending what has been done in this auction, saying this is the norm and to expect something different (accurate representation in photos) is something extraordinary. In my view and apparently many others here it's not - it's what's expected.

I don't know why you are saying people here are enemies, or why you are saying you don't plan to sell here any longer - is this simply because people have disagreed with your stance? It seems like an extreme overreaction to a difference of opinion. The whole thing is very puzzling.

Agreed, I think everyone is entitled to their opinions and we can all agree to disagree. Nothing to be "enemied" or to make it "if you are not with me then you are against me" kind of mentality.

I think perhaps; @marturx might feel antagonized because some of the speedmasters at auction are his? My experience on OF tells me that @marturx is quite a respected collector and has sold some really nice watches.

Again, forums/online messaging can be a poor medium for deep conversation; misunderstandings can and will happen...

Peace !
 
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I’m little reluctant to post this, because I’m not as excited as I had hoped to be and I know there will be telling critiques from some members here. But, I do really believe in the OF notion that we share our adventures, good and bad, with everyone here, so that everyone has an opportunity to learn.

Apart from everything else, it is rather astonishing how Sotheby’s photos inaccurately depicted colors. You can judge for yourself.

Overview: (1) the watch does not have the hoped for brown dial, but the dial itself is quite nice, although, as Sotheby’s disclosed, the lume is gone, apart from faint shadows of it; (2) the pushers are original; while the crown is correct, it’s a replacement that doesn’t fit properly; (3) the hands have been redone, most obviously the chrono second hand; I believe the relumed hour and minute hands are probably correct and vintage, but I’m including a bunch of photos because I recognize that it’s not a certainty; (4) it actually has an A1 crystal on it, probably original to the watch.

I’m pleased but I wouldn’t argue I got some incredible deal.


(Yes, I’ve put it on a BOR bracelet for the moment. I know the end links are wrong and need to be changed; any help in getting better end links will be greatly appreciated! I haven’t decided if I like the look or not yet.)

Anyway, in that spirit, here are photos of the 105.002-62, lot 38, in Sotheby’s Speedmaster auction on July 19th.

Here is a shot of their catalog photo first, just as it appeared on line:


And here are some general shots


Case


Dial & Hands



Crystal


Finally, a separated at birth photo:

These watches are only 164 serial numbers apart. My other -62 is closer to brown than this one. Both of them are early enough serial numbers that they are alpha handed -62s.

As always, I welcome your feedback and insights, even if it hurts.

I'm glad I'm not willing to spend that much on my birth year watch from 1962, just to worry about how original it is or whether I'll be able to find parts in a few years 😜

As for the photography - i agree it's misleading, but if you're happy with the watch then great!
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Interesting points raised here. I think
8/23 update:

1 - It’s back from my watchmaker, with a clean bill of health.

2 - I found aftermarket 19mm end links for the BOR bracelet. I did have to Dremel them down to fit. It works for me. I wish the period Omega bracelets for these Speedmasters were more robust.

A few shots in natural light:


I still can’t believe that this is the same watch.



I’m very happy with it despite the fact that it certainly wasn’t what I thought I was buying. I think it’s way nicer, although in a very different way.

Congrats on this watch! Super super nice.

Interesting points raised in this thread. In my opinion, I think the dial looks fairly black in the photos.... I don't really see any brown at all, and I don't think they were misleading in their description (they don't describe the dial as 'brown' or 'tropical' anywhere, and are honest with the condition of the lume).

Looking at this snapshot below of the phot from the listing, IMO the dial is very much black - but I agree the lume is far more yellow/orange and the bezel far more blue in the photo than in natural light (probably done on purpose). Is this misleading? I guess it is, particularly when you're paying this amount of money.

Separately - broadly I think it's not uncommon in the vintage watch industry to have more artistic renderings of watches (and really, with any material good to be honest). Sothebys would probably argue (i'm not defending them) that with the background, it's clearly an altered photo. David Parmegiani for example is one of the most respected vintage watch dealers in the world, and his instagram is entirely ads for watches that are clearly altered pictures to a natural photo.

I think its just worth pointing out that the $300k Lambo you're seeing in a Lamborghini catelogue is not going to be exactly accurate to how it looks in natural lighting - neither are the Rolexes in new Rolex ads. This exists in all walks of life for luxury goods.

 
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I'm glad I'm not willing to spend that much on my birth year watch from 1962, just to worry about how original it is or whether I'll be able to find parts in a few years 😜

As for the photography - i agree it's misleading, but if you're happy with the watch then great!

I’d rather have this than a new Daytona. 😁
 
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I’d rather have this than a new Daytona. 😁
Amen. Or a hulk/pepsi etc etc...

🙁

Don't have the Daytona, but for less than the cost of this watch I have a (1) Speedy Tuesday ST1, (2) 2013 Speedy Pro, (3) 2005 Hesalite sandwich with Mitsukoshi dial and hands, and (4) a 145.022-74

= 4 in the rotation > 1 vintage?