Sotheby’s Lot 38 105.002-62, Aug 23 update; AKA the stories photos tell us

BatDad · Aug 3, 2019

I’d like to concur with the comments above - thank you @airansun for the level of transparency! With every post we all learn more!

My personal opinion is that the watch, once &Archer s feedback is addressed above will be one to cherish.

But I do agree it’s disappointing the color palette from the auction house was not true.

As a contrarian view - I’m not loving the BOR - but that seems a personal choice. No?

JwRosenthal · Aug 3, 2019

BatDad
I’d like to concur with the comments above - thank you @airansun for the level of transparency! With every post we all learn more!

My personal opinion is that the watch, once &Archer s feedback is addressed above will be one to cherish.

But I do agree it’s disappointing the color palette from the auction house was not true.

As a contrarian view - I’m not loving the BOR - but that seems a personal choice. No?

Have to agree- I think a BOR is a little too precious for the proportions of the watch

airansun · Aug 23, 2019

8/23 update:

1 - It’s back from my watchmaker, with a clean bill of health.

2 - I found aftermarket 19mm end links for the BOR bracelet. I did have to Dremel them down to fit. It works for me. I wish the period Omega bracelets for these Speedmasters were more robust.

A few shots in natural light:

I still can’t believe that this is the same watch.

I’m very happy with it despite the fact that it certainly wasn’t what I thought I was buying. I think it’s way nicer, although in a very different way.

Taybharr · Aug 23, 2019

airansun
8/23 update:

1 - It’s back from my watchmaker, with a clean bill of health.

2 - I found aftermarket 19mm end links for the BOR bracelet. I did have to Dremel them down to fit. It works for me. I wish the period Omega bracelets for these Speedmasters were more robust.

A few shots in natural light:

I still can’t believe that this is the same watch.

I’m very happy with it despite the fact that it certainly wasn’t what I thought I was buying. I think it’s way nicer, although in a very different way.

Very lovely watch. Guessing you dremmelled the links not the lugs...

airansun · Aug 23, 2019

Taybharr
Very lovely watch. Guessing you dremmelled the links not the lugs...

Safe guess. 😉

Walrus · Aug 23, 2019

I know it looks like post farming making posts like this but I can’t help it that watch is stunning I think you done good

marturx · Aug 24, 2019

Very sad to read this thread......

IMO we (=this forum) has contributed to inflict this pain to ourself by hyping Speedmasters, and especially the old ones for years. The higher the stakes get, the higher the expectations get too. What is the fundamental value of OP´s watch I´m wondering? What fundamental value is in a brownish dial and a blueish bezel? Are you seriously thinking that these facts are in the mind of a professional photographer when he/ she is performing his/ hers daily work? To me that is a conspiracy theory as good as that Apollo 11 never landed on the moon.

I had 4 watches in the auction, none of them were misrepresented in pictures or text. To any bidders disadvantage at least. On the contrary, Sotheby´s claimed that my chocolate 145.022-69 had had it´s dial relumed, which I´m sure it hadn´t. I lost a few thousands dollars there, I´m sure of, but my point is, that this auction house is IMO looking into the buyers interest too, not only sellers interest, or their own interest.

As always when spending a lot of money, be very careful of vetting the things you are buying, or simply refrain from buying. And when you are speculating, be prepared to loose, don´t expect to win every time!

JwRosenthal · Aug 24, 2019

marturx
Very sad to read this thread......

IMO we (=this forum) has contributed to inflict this pain to ourself by hyping Speedmasters, and especially the old ones for years. The higher the stakes get, the higher the expectations get too. What is the fundamental value of OP´s watch I´m wondering? What fundamental value is in a brownish dial and a blueish bezel? Are you seriously thinking that these facts are in the mind of a professional photographer when he/ she is performing his/ hers daily work? To me that is a conspiracy theory as good as that Apollo 11 never landed on the moon.

I had 4 watches in the auction, none of them were misrepresented in pictures or text. To any bidders disadvantage at least. On the contrary, Sotheby´s claimed that my chocolate 145.022-69 had had it´s dial relumed, which I´m sure it hadn´t. I lost a few thousands dollars there, I´m sure of, but my point is, that this auction house is IMO looking into the buyers interest too, not only sellers interest, or their own interest.

As always when spending a lot of money, be very careful of vetting the things you are buying, or simply refrain from buying. And when you are speculating, be prepared to loose, don´t expect to win every time!

I think the professional photographers, myself included, that responded to this were not implying this was a conspiracy to deceive, but poor choices made in post production in order to make the photo “pop” for the catalog- it inadvertently misrepresented the watch. If this were a rare piece of fine art not commonly known to the community and the condition of color were so grossly misrepresented (vibrant and vivid in the catalog and in real life dull and almost monochromatic) there would have been a lawsuit.

nzshadow · Aug 24, 2019

JwRosenthal
I think the professional photographers, myself included, that responded to this were not implying this was a conspiracy to deceive, but poor choices made in post-production in order to make the photo “pop” for the catalog- it inadvertently misrepresented the watch.

Absolutely. And this for me is the crux of the matter - Even though you are happy with your watch (and you should be - it is a beautiful piece) the images that you based your purchase decision upon were manipulated to such a degree that they no longer accurately represented the item photographed.
They are a major auction house, they have an Art Department for feck's sake. This is borderline criminal. Whether they set out to deceive or just wanted the photo to pop, the result is the same: deception.

JwRosenthal
If this were a rare piece of fine art not commonly known to the community and the condition of color were so grossly misrepresented (vibrant and vivid in the catalog and in real life dull and almost monochromatic) there would have been a lawsuit.

I cannot agree more. I am actually angry about this.

JwRosenthal · Aug 24, 2019

nzshadow
Absolutely. And this for me is the crux of the matter - Even though you are happy with your watch (and you should be - it is a beautiful piece) the images that you based your purchase decision upon were manipulated to such a degree that they no longer accurately represented the item photographed.
They are a major auction house, they have an Art Department for feck's sake. This is borderline criminal. Whether they set out to deceive or just wanted the photo to pop, the result is the same: deception.

I cannot agree more. I am actually angry about this.

So am I. I can’t tell you how many times I have had a client tell me that the photo reproduction I have made of art looked a little dull or not exciting, and I have said- but that’s what it looks like- color charts have been used to balance it properly. The next question is if I can make it look more lively- to which is say no, that would be misrepresenting the piece....and I’m not doing it for sale pieces, just for documentation.

Archer · Aug 24, 2019

marturx
What fundamental value is in a brownish dial and a blueish bezel? Are you seriously thinking that these facts are in the mind of a professional photographer when he/ she is performing his/ hers daily work? To me that is a conspiracy theory as good as that Apollo 11 never landed on the moon.

I would not necessarily expect a professional photographer to know the subtle differences of watch collecting. However I would certainly expect them to be able to look at a photo that they have taken and post processed, and know if it reflects the actual item that they photographed or not. If they can't, they should be looking for a new job...

Conspiracy theories aside, this is about competence.

marturx · Aug 24, 2019

Archer
I would not necessarily expect a professional photographer to know the subtle differences of watch collecting. However I would certainly expect them to be able to look at a photo that they have taken and post processed, and know if it reflects the actual item that they photographed or not. If they can't, they should be looking for a new job...

Conspiracy theories aside, this is about competence.

I highly respect your competence, @Archer and don´t want to get into a debate regarding competence with you, of all people, but your standard is very high, and you cannot expect that from everybody else. Also, don´t forget that the purpose of these photos are to sell, as all photos taken by brokers no matter what object is being sold. Overall my opinion is that the photos were very good in Sotheby´s Speedy sale

Archer · Aug 24, 2019

marturx
Also, don´t forget that the purpose of these photos are to sell, as all photos taken by brokers no matter what object is being sold.

Silly me - I thought photos were to provide an accurate representation of the item I'm buying, if I can't see it in person.

Puts a whole new perspective on some sales threads I suppose...

marturx · Aug 24, 2019

Archer
[QUOTE="marturx, post: 1312416, member: 3514"Also, don´t forget that the purpose of these photos are to sell, as all photos taken by brokers no matter what object is being sold.

Silly me - I thought photos were to provide an accurate representation of the item I'm buying, if I can't see it in person.

Puts a whole new perspective on some sales threads I suppose...[/QUOTE]

I´m not quite with you here @Archer what is it you are implying?

Spacefruit · Aug 24, 2019

Why dont the auctions use me? (Joking, but if I can do it, why cant they do it?)

No hidden faults, everything is visible.

JwRosenthal · Aug 24, 2019

@marturx - I get your point, but perhaps you are not getting the big picture here. This is not some guy with an eBay account and an instagram filter- this is fυcking Sotheby’s!! They are not just held to a higher standard, they ARE the standard. That’s why this is so horribly alarming.

Syrte · Aug 24, 2019

Dear @marturx, it’s good to hear another perspective — and sorry to hear you lost on a lume description.

Error is part of human nature and if they did clarify at auction that the dial was not brown, then it does mean it’s a mistake. And it doesn’t mean the whole catalogue was a misrepresentation. But then it reveals at best a flawed process. With the kind of money that flows through their hands unfortunately the level of tolerance is low and the bar is high.

JwRosenthal · Aug 24, 2019

Syrte
Dear @marturx, it’s good to hear another perspective — and sorry to hear you lost on a lume description.

Error is part of human nature and if they did clarify at auction that the dial was not brown, then it does mean it’s a mistake. But then it reveals at best a flawed process. With the kind of money that flows through their hands unfortunately the level of tolerance is low and the bar is high.

Agreed. And if this had been a Renoir and not “just a watch”, the auction would have been cancelled and the error corrected before it went live again. Auction houses like this are the ultimate of “buy the seller”- that’s what they charge their fees for. If there isn’t an insanely high expectation of truth in advertising, it calls into question the entire auction business model- then they just become another huckster of used shit and buyer beware.

Observer · Aug 24, 2019

Thanks OP and everyone else for a great learning thread.
I can't get over the colors in the Sotheby's photo. I'm not a pro when it comes to photography by any means, but it strikes me that there's a very cool tone to the bezel in comparison to the very warm tone of the dial. I don't see how anybody fucks this up accidentally. Their photographer should probably stick to black and white.

M'Bob · Aug 25, 2019

marturx
MO we (=this forum) has contributed to inflict this pain to ourself by hyping Speedmasters, and especially the old ones for years

I love it. Blame a group of dedicated hobbyists and their enthusiasm for the ethical compromise and/or incompetence of a company doing business since 1744.

Sotheby’s Lot 38 105.002-62, Aug 23 update; AKA the stories photos tell us

BatDad

JwRosenthal

airansun

Taybharr

airansun

Walrus

marturx

JwRosenthal

nzshadow

JwRosenthal

Archer

marturx

Archer

marturx

Spacefruit

JwRosenthal

Syrte

JwRosenthal

Observer

M'Bob

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