Sorry guys! But I'm never going to buy a watch again from the UK.

I didn't intend to close any debate, just to say that it is not true and perhaps looking to a peer reviewed report might lend some insight.

I don't have anything as weighty as Vogue but, perhaps have a look at this. I assume peer reviewed...

https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2019/being-black-eu-summary

If you open the PDF, here's the first figure and that's as far as I could be bothered going:


The title is just about being black in the EU so, perhaps the Brits are just racist against others?

Anyway, I've also worked and lived in Canada (I agree with your sentiments) and USA but, that was Seattle which is a very tolerant society by most accounts - saying USA is like saying "I lived in Europe" as it's a big and diverse country. I've also worked/lived in Brazil, Italy, Germany, France and Spain and I still don't see the UK as an outlier. If the graphic above is to be believed, then my feelings are not too far off.

We will all have different experiences but lumping the whole of the UK "North" together and comparing to London is hardly sound science - I've lived in what people call "the North" as well as London. I don't know why people voted for Brexit but my straw poll indicates it was the "forgotten" people whose vote never got them out of a poor way of life who swung this - the vote upset the status quo and might make the politicians listen?

I am always happy to be proven wrong. The UN tweet appears to relate to the fact that the UK report skims over the past - I haven't read it but, I can say that I am not one of the UK residents who "struggles both with its history of deep racial divides and with racial tensions". People are not the same as they were 50 years ago and most people now try to get on with everyone (just my feeling and no link to prove this).

Good luck trying to work this out😁.

Chris

Unfortunately, we here may very likely all be affluent white (or white-passing) men, whose views are in many ways lacking a certain - let’s call it - investment. (I of course could be quickly mistaken at this assumption, in which case I’d resort to at least begging agreement on the statistical probabilities.)

Still, what’s perhaps safe yet to say is that it sure *seemed* that Brexit was deeply pregnant with anti-immigrant and xenophobic rhetoric? So much so, it would seem suspect to hear a suggestion to the contrary?

Meanwhile, the study you link to is an interesting one. It deals only with persons of African dissent, which is a rather narrow sample of the topic. It also deals only with those persons’ reported perceptions (their answers to survey prompts), which is a very murky concept riddled with issues not only of survey biases, but perhaps more troubling: it’s prone to demonstrating only whether persons in a country feel they are “allowed” to complain (or have otherwise been conditioned to normalize a baseline of behavior as not being complaint-worthy).

The U.S. has been referenced several times in this discussion, and you very correctly noted that treating the U.S. as a monolith on the topic is an error. That said (and without for a moment suggesting the U.S.’s problems in these areas are an illusion), there is one relevant metric in which I believe most of the U.S. has culturally come to lead: increasing freedom (if not energized compulsion) to voice maximum outrage (rightfully) at even the slightest of inequities (still rightfully).

For example, one should pause to reflect whether the “Black Lives Matter” movement originated in the U.S. only because things are uniquely “bad” here, or if instead (or in addition) there is not also some (partial) aspect of BLM originating here because such discussions are energetic, and forefront.

Put differently, one should keep separate how much the U.S. has a problem from how much the U.S. openly discusses our problems.

And the converse can be true, as well: one should not confuse not talking about a problem, with there being none.

Perhaps it’s from this realization that I view with some skepticism the report you cite; a report that is in danger of potentially only showcasing relative degrees of success in the silencing of marginalized people?

If that seems dramatic, I notice that the report you highlight seems inapposite with the previously mentioned statistics regarding the effective nonexistence of black women in U.K. academia. Am I to believe there are no black women interested in being in academia?

Similarly, Multiple studies have found that ethnic minorities in the U.K. are disproportionately at risk during the pandemic, because of the nature of their jobs, their housing situations, or their ability to access healthcare. Am I to believe this condition is due to their preferences for work, and reasoned distaste for receiving healthcare?

None of the FTSE 100 firms has a Black CEO, CFO, or chair, as of 2021. No blacks interested in such work?

In the U.K., for every 1 white victim of homicide aged 16 to 24 in 2018/19, there were 24 Black victims. Blacks simply more prone to accidents?

The list could truly go on and on, especially if briadened to talk about more than only those of African dissent. But that much should suffice to say that perhaps the modern trend of systemic and institutional racism can be more insidious than historically overt racism. More insidious in part, precisely because it can allow one to believe they have no problems to address.

So when you say “people are not the same as they were 50 years ago,” I can completely agree with that sentiment, but still arrive at the opposite conclusion.

All a very heady conversation for a luxury watch forum, but I did read with some distress such a lovely and esteemed colleague such as yourself dismissing out of hand a colleagues entirety of views on every subject for having expressed that perhaps the U.K. is still fallible on certain metrics.

For what it’s worth, I read your vehement objections as indicating your deep distaste for racism/xenophobia and so a repulsion to the idea things may not be as you hope.

Where he has just started performing…..

We have been welcoming immigrants for well over 2000 years. They aren’t always peaceful and friendly. Various scandis and Vikings and Romans ( soldiers came from all over the Roman Empire) were a bit lively to start with but many stayed here, then the Normans….

They must like the climate and our food and beer we think.

Eventually we also welcomed some Germans to be our royal family (It’s not working out so well with all of them though).

Apart from the roads and the clean water what did the bloody Romans ever do for us :0)
These empires are not all bad you know and a lot of the systems we use to and criticise them..... only exist due to all those pesky empires......

I would also say have been round round the block a bit in other countries and in the UK - on the whole the UK is fairly inclusive and has been on a progressive track.

it was this, or 4 pages in unsticking a pusher cap 😉

The OF byline 😁

@cvalue13 - I take all your points on board and the last comment is absolutely true as I dislike racism and xenophobia wherever, and have called it out in the past.

It would be hard to go through all your post but, on the causes of Brexit, some people are saying this is racism and xenophobia but, a quick Google search seems to go against that:


It frustrates me when people continue to make the correlation when, in the second result, Essex University don't come to that conclusion - Wikipedia is not that trustworthy a source but is saying the same thing. It seems a convenient thing to say and, if someone starts by using this comment, then I stop listening. Do read again the comment I initially replied to.

The EU report I quoted is again just the first hit from Google (I am quite lazy):


Yes, the perception of impacts could be an issue but this is hard to measure anyway. There may be better reports but this was commissioned by the EU and is used by them to decide aspects of future policy. I'd find it hard to believe that they haven't given the logic some thought to alleviate different cultural perceptions. I haven't gone into this but if you see a peer reviewed report that contradicts these findings, then I will look at it.

I'd agree that it does seem that minorities are not well represented in academia - until the nineties (?) very few people went to University and now it is a far larger number. It may be that (like myself from a difficult background) it wasn't felt that University was an option for many but that's slowly changed.

On the pandemic impacts, yes likely the type of job and living conditions make an impact but healthcare is free for all and easy to access. It's a big question and seems to also be partly driven by distrust of the government and powers that be. I see the various stats you're showing but it wouldn't be the case that these are directly a justification that the UK is a racist country, as I'm sure you would appreciate. I'm sorry but I don't have the time to review them all and respond.

Let's be honest, the UK is not some utopian paradise but it shouldn't be singled out as a racism outlier, not even for Brexit it would appear, which is where I came in...

I appreciate your thoughts on this which are far more detailed than I have time to respond to. I shan't comment further as we're a long way from the original discussion and I'm short of time. Thanks!

Chris

It's far easier to send an item and not "describe" it lawfully ....

On a positive note.. just got a beautiful watch delivered from the UK, to Spain. Shipped with Fedex on Monday, arrived yesterday morning in Barcelona for customs and this morning delivered to my home!

Congratulations! It would be great to see a picture!!

I think some of the people here will recognize it... was lucky enough to buy it here at the forum 2 weeks ago! Very happy with it!

Enjoy and dibs!

@Shabbaz I understand your frustration!

Had a watch sent by a friend from Brazil to Germany on the 12th of January... went to Bogota, than to Miami and Louisville and then Cologne (Köln in german). Two weeks in the hands of customs already. ☕