So... any of our members here have an interest in firearms?

Waltesefalcon · Mar 13, 2018

When I was younger I probably did not have the correct mindset to carry a gun and I didn't, then I had kids; now I carry nearly everywhere.

Wryfox · Mar 13, 2018

Waltesefalcon
When I was younger I probably did not have the correct mindset to carry a gun and I didn't

I agree with you there...too much piss and vinegar in my youth, and didn't have anyone who's life was more important than my own, nor the rational thought process required. I had firearms in college and belonged to a shooting club, but still did stupid things guided by incomplete judgement and high testosterone.

Since the new Florida gun laws are hitting close to home, I was talking to my wife about the minimum age limit rising from 18-21. I asked her if I was officially becoming an old man because from a safety standpoint (and remembering my own youth) I actually kind of agree. So there's that, but then from a constitutional standpoint I hate it. Death by a thousand cuts, as they say.

MikiJ · Mar 13, 2018

Wryfox
Since the new Florida gun laws are hitting close to home, I was talking to my wife about the minimum age limit rising from 18-21. I asked her if I was officially becoming an old man because from a safety standpoint (and remembering my own youth) I actually kind of agree. So there's that, but then from a constitutional standpoint I hate it. Death by a thousand cuts, as they say.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't!

larryganz · Mar 14, 2018

Wryfox
...When you are in fear for you life you will shoot like an idiot. You won't even know what happened. The course of events will surprise you. It will not go as planned or as you imagine.

Unless you are training in high stress, you won't perform in high stress...

Bingo. About 10 years ago a large black bear got into our garage, while my wife was inside bringing groceries into the house. She was still inside the house when my son came home from walking the dog, and they were charged by the bear, which got into a "boxing match with the dog" while my son ran into the house screaming "Bear! Bear! It got Snickers!"

I ran out of the house to find a 300lb black bear right outside of the garage, and the dog's leash was tied to my son's electric scooter in the street 40 feet away, at the bottom of the driveway, but the dog was okay. I grabbed a broom and tried to shoo the bear away with it, while my wife went around us to retrieve the dog and bring her inside.

I was also armed with my S&W 637 .38spl concealed carry weapon in my front pocket, loaded with 158gr +p Bufallo Bore ammo (1000 fps from 2" barrel). But I hadn't pulled it out. In our area, the bears are usually afraid of humans and lethal force hasn't been needed when we can scare them away.

The bear slowly followed my wife and dog, grunting as if trying to tell us something, which lead me to draw my firearm and stand at the entrance to the garage. Once my wife got close to the house with the dog, then the bear charged! She took off running towards me, as did the bear behind her.

At this point I fired off one shot right at the bear coming straight at me, once my wife was past me, knowing a .38 isn't enough to stop a bear but it was all I had on me in the heat of the moment. I didn't even hear the loud report of the gunshot - it sounded more like a someone snapped their fingers. But the round hit the ground about 3 feet in front of the bear, spraying it with fragments of river rocks from our landscaping.

I hadn't trained enough under stress to maintain control, and had jerked the trigger. Deep down, I had resisted harming the bear, using only the broom and loud voice while standing tall to scare it off it. I had no idea why it was being aggressive (they're vegetarians) but I didn't think it would hurt us until it started following my wife, and especially the charge from 40 feet away.

But that compassion didn't stop me from pulling the trigger once I feared for our lives. This from someone who couldn't shoot a skunk with a .22LR that was in our backyard stinking up the place, and who went on one hunting trip 20 years ago but couldn't pull the trigger when the time came.

The bear miraculously stopped it's charge after the shot, and I ran back into the house, only noticing it's two bear cubs crawling on top of the garage shelves as I was going into the house!

We called animal control, who told us to stay inside and they were on their way, but I peeked into the garage and one of the cubs was on top of the open garage door (both doors open). So I hit the close button, and he jumped off onto the shelves and they both ran out of the garage and took off with mama bear.

Our neighbors witnessed the whole thing, and one of them took pictures and video. I was even on the news the next day, after the bears were trapped and put down because they'd also charged a neighbor in their own front yard earlier that week (same neighbor that filmed them, but not the one that witnessed the gunshot and kept me out of trouble for firing a gun in city limits). That was really sad how it all ended.

It's hard to get training to handle these situations under stress.

Wryfox · Mar 14, 2018

larryganz
But the round hit the ground about 3 feet in front of the bear, spraying it with fragments of river rocks from our landscaping.

We have mega bear problems here, and little we can do about it. Black bears are highly protected, a Felony in fact, if shot maliciously. Its illegal to even touch a dead one.

But as for the shot going errant, it's very common due to loss of fine motor skills. Jerking is exactly what will happen under stress.

If anyone is ever in a self defense class and they teach you to line up sights and make a smooth trigger pull at an attacker, leave immediately and get your money back. Not even close to reality. A basic point at arms length and reflexive snap of the trigger is what will happen, and all that can be expected.

I was taught years ago, in a high stress self defense shoot, aim for the head. Why? because the body follows the head, and your going to hit about 3ft low due to trigger jerking at a typical self defense distance, arriving at a solid body shot. The only reasonably effective way to stop a threat in that scenario is a hit to the torso. Limb shots don't bother anybody in the heat of the moment. True head shot? Impossible under stress.

Here's my little buddy from a couple years ago. They don't sell bear proof trash bins here so we put them out as late as possible. They learn. This is actually early morning just before sunrise and he triggered the driveway lights. Put out the trash maybe 5 minutes before...he was waiting.

A few days earlier, I was out in the yard watching a meteor shower just before dawn. Was looking straight up but I sensed a figure nearby. Looked down and he was *right next to me*, almost touching me. I could have patted him on the head. It was so dark he didn't see me, and the wind was blowing away from us so didn't smell me either. He stopped, wagged his head back and forth like he knew something was near, but then moved forward and wandered off to the woods. If he had got startled next to me it would have ended very badly I think. His head was as high as my chest. Here's another fun fact..I was literally frozen in place. It took a few moments for my body to relax and move, as much as I wanted to move the instant he walked off. The term "freezing from fear" is real and can happen too. I literally knew better and still couldn't move. Next time might be different now that I have experienced it, though I would prefer there is not a next time.

voere · Mar 14, 2018

Wryfox
We have mega bear problems here, and little we can do about it. Black bears are highly protected, a Felony in fact, if shot maliciously. Its illegal to even touch a dead one.

But as for the shot going errant, it's very common due to loss of fine motor skills. Jerking is exactly what will happen under stress.

If anyone is ever in a self defense class and they teach you to line up sights and make a smooth trigger pull at an attacker, leave immediately and get your money back. Not even close to reality. A basic point at arms length and reflexive snap of the trigger is what will happen, and all that can be expected.

I was taught years ago, in a high stress self defense shoot, aim for the head. Why? because the body follows the head, and your going to hit about 3ft low due to trigger jerking at a typical self defense distance, arriving at a solid body shot. The only reasonably effective way to stop a threat in that scenario is a hit to the torso. Limb shots don't bother anybody in the heat of the moment. True head shot? Impossible under stress.

Here's my little buddy from a couple years ago. They don't sell bear proof trash bins here so we put them out as late as possible. They learn. This is actually early morning just before sunrise and he triggered the driveway lights. Put out the trash maybe 5 minutes before...he was waiting.

A few days earlier, I was out in the yard watching a meteor shower just before dawn. Was looking straight up but I sensed a figure nearby. Looked down and he was *right next to me*, almost touching me. I could have patted him on the head. It was so dark he didn't see me, and the wind was blowing away from us so didn't smell me either. He stopped, wagged his head back and forth like he knew something was near, but then moved forward and wandered off to the woods. If he had got startled next to me it would have ended very badly I think. His head was as high as my chest. Here's another fun fact..I was literally frozen in place. It took a few moments for my body to relax and move, as much as I wanted to move the instant he walked off. The term "freezing from fear" is real and can happen too. I literally knew better and still couldn't move. Next time might be different now that I have experienced it, though I would prefer there is not a next time.

A bear encounter
When I was a teenager a bear came into our neighbors kitchen. The woman was cooking dinner her kitchen was hot. So she decided to open the kitchen door and let some cold air in.

Well the bear tore through the screen door and started to tear up her kitchen. The woman ran out the front door and came screaming over to our house. We had just came back from a day of deer hunting. Our rifles were in the rifle rack in the family room. This was at our family hunting lodge. Five of us grabbed are rifles and headed over to her house.

When we were about 50 yards from the kitchen door the bear bolted out of the kitchen door. We tracked that bear with no luck it was getting too dark to continue. Two days later I shot a deer.
I field dressed the deer and the deer was hanging on a tree limb in back of our cabin.

A little after dusk the bear came back to the area and wanted the deer. This time we managed to take the problem bear out. It was a shame to have to put the bear down but the bear was a problem bear and needed to be put down.

Adrenaline Dump
It's amazing how are bodies deal with stress. Your brain shuts down higher brain functions and instinct kicks in. Your fine motor skills shut down.
If you understand how to deal with the adrenaline "hormone cocktail" dump it can work to your advantage. That's when your training kicks in.
During high stress scenarios I had my fair share of adrenaline dumps. The normal responses are usually acquiesce, fight, flight or freeze. Along with plenty of side effects. Hopefully when we get an adrenaline dump we will be able to handle the effects in a positive way.

Wryfox · Mar 14, 2018

voere
When I was a teenager a bear came into our neighbors kitchen.

Bring back memories voere?

Wryfox · Mar 14, 2018

Picasso with a Colt 45 Single Action. Safety first, Pablo!

Waltesefalcon · Mar 14, 2018

Wryfox
Picasso with a Colt 45 Single Action. Safety first, Pablo!

At least it doesn't look like it is cocked.

MikiJ · Mar 14, 2018

Waltesefalcon
At least it doesn't look like it is cocked.

Hopefully it was a single action 😉

noelekal · Mar 14, 2018

It is a single-action and it isn't cocked.

larryganz · Mar 14, 2018

My gun club recently installed an indoor active range for self defense classes, where firearm students can be on the move and the targets can pop up to be engaged. But it doesn't add the adrenaline and fear factors that can cause us to jerk the trigger or freeze as in the above testimonials.

That's where mindset is so important - I wasn't preparing in my head to shoot, when I was engaging the bear with a broom while my firearm was still in my pocket. And when the bear followed my wife and dog, I wasn't mentally prepared to shoot even though I felt that had to draw my weapon. And when the bear charged us, then it was then too late to mentally prepare. The whole incident went by in a flash.

Wryfox · Mar 14, 2018

Re mindset, I remember a story years ago where someone had analyzed several battles from the US Civil War. The number of rifle fire casualties was incredibly low for the number of shots fired. The theory being that these were farmers mostly, and were trained to shoot but not trained to kill. They concluded that these riflemen were intentionally shooting into the ground or over the heads of their fellow countrymen to avoid harming them. Canon fire did most of the damage. Just a theory but it makes sense to me. Mindset.

MikiJ · Mar 14, 2018

Although I'm somewhat reluctant to share this with you, it really goes to show the importance of controlling that overwhelming adrenaline rush, training and discipline. In order to survive a fire-fight you must be disciplined and rely on your training to calm down that overwhelming rush and fire your fully automatic, in my case, CAR-15 in 5 to 7 round bursts aimed at where the incoming rounds are coming from. Shooting into the jungle, hitting no one until your clip is empty is the quickest path to disaster for both you and your fellow soldiers.

voere · Mar 15, 2018

Here's a link to a big bear

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/watch...ecord-alaska-brown-bear-on-this-intense-hunt/

voere · Mar 15, 2018

Wryfox
Bring back memories voere?

When I was younger I enjoyed big game hunting. I had some great hunts, some were successful and some not so successful. However they were all good times.

Wryfox · Mar 15, 2018

voere
Here's a link to a big bear

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/watch...ecord-alaska-brown-bear-on-this-intense-hunt/

From article...
"Was that a massive bear or what? That must have been a pretty exciting stalk as they crept closer and closer to it.Things can get pretty dicey in a hurry when you’re that close to a big bear and shoot it with a bow, particularly if you screw up your shot placement. For this reason, it’s extremely important to make a good shot on the bear without it knowing you were there."

I have to say this, to each his own, yes. I have never been a sport hunter...I get the excitement of the hunt, but not the thrill of the kill. Standing over a big dead animal you killed for no reason is exciting? I lived in Texas for a while and loved it, except for the sport hunting craze. My neighbor filled his whole front room with trophies taken at exotic farms. None of it necessary to sustain his life or family. I grew up in a place where hunting was to fill the freezer...there was a purpose. I get that all meat comes from animals dying, but to do it for fun eludes me.

Wryfox · Mar 15, 2018

So I'm looking through another OF forum on NASA pics...and I see pic that makes me think "where have I see that guy before?" Then it dawned on me....its our own OF poster larryganz.

river rat · Mar 15, 2018

Since some of you are talking bears. This bear attack happened about 5-20 miles from me you can survive a attack with out a gun but bear spray only slows the attack down were you mite survive like this guy did. My Dad use to live next tp this guys Dad who got attacked. And from the post above in bear country don't leave your garbage cans out side I leave mine in the garage with garage door down you leave it in front of the house you deserve a bear tearing up that can and hanging out in your yard.

Mtek · Mar 15, 2018

All this bear discussion makes me want someone to show their Colt Grizzly or Kodiak.