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Tx3double
·The p50 looks like a fun toy, not sure how practical. Also don’t know about keltec reliability. I know they had issues with those bull pup shotguns.
So... any of our members here have an interest in firearms?
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SkunkPrince
·I think they just want their gun bought for a sci fi property.
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i20rider
·Anyone other than me see this and think, "this isn't going to end well"?
https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearms/pistols/p50/
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i20rider
·My wifes factory duty pistol vs my carry lol
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noelekal
··Home For Wayward WatchesAnyone other than me see this and think, "this isn't going to end well"?
https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearms/pistols/p50/
Yep. It's gonna be provocative alright. Despite its features and "look" it ought to be perfectly legal to own and lawfully use, but panties will wad over that one.
"This 5.7 chambered handgun is sure to gather props from your buddies and range rats alike."
Probably the two dumbest reasons to acquire a firearm. Posturing sells these days.
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mogwan
·I've always been a spec guy so these are proving to be gold. Also, I do sort of like having that feeling of "what the hell are they talking about?" When I read something technical. I recognize that I'm in the dark on much of this material and that's precisely what makes me want to know more. Someday soon I'll start a custom 1911 project that I can spend a little time on each evening or so until it's perfect. I'm in no hurry for the end result. It's about the journey of craftsmanship.
Kuhnhausen also did a 1911 (or S&W Revolver?) videotape some years ago. Sadly, last time I watched it (in the 1990's) it was already suffering print-through. His latest edition on S&W Revolvers includes a handful of pages regarding the use of MIM parts in 'newer' S&W Revolvers. He was a pretty opinionated guy about avoiding MIM parts completely! My copies are well worn and some of the best $ I've spent on gun stuff.
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mogwan
·Unfortunately .22 LR supplies are often iffy. Air is free while CO2 capsules aren't all that expensive.
I'd love to have one of the Armi Jaeger .22 LR replicas of the M16. They were often used as prop rifles for films like Dawn of the dead. Only the pistol type magazine fitted into the dummy magazine gave away the illusion. These came in .22 and .32 ACP. My guess is they used the .32 version as blank firing prop guns, since .22 blanks aren't usually efficient in autoloaders.
A airgun of the exact dimensions of the firearm it replicates can be very useful in training for point shooting, as the Army proved as early as WW2 with its airgun versions of the M1919/ANT MGs.
They used airgun trainers again in the 60's to train in point shooting for Close Combat.
The Crosman 38T and 38C CO2 revolvers were originally marketed for Airforce and Civilian police training. I have several of those in my collection, and learned a lot about handgun shooting from these.
If you like an M16 in .22, you can pretty easily find a .22LR upper. I prefer my SIG 522... German quality design and it folds into a tidy case. the mags hold 25 rounds and it locks back on the last round. They're still around on Gunbroker every now and then. For .22LR revolvers, you can't beat a S&W M17 or 18. I train a lot with the 4" barrels. Same feel, weight, and almost identical trigger pull as a centerfire N frame. But my favorites are my pre-lock M27 with the original style diamond-pattern top-strap. S&W retired the machine that cut that pattern several years ago when it just wore out. the new ones are now milled. My 3.5" M27 wears (now embargoed Gaboon Ebony grips made by John Culina (Kuric). The other 'keeper' is a 686 'L' frame' Snubby with 'Marblecake & Feathercrotch boot grips also made by Kuric. For a 2.5" barrel, it is incredibly accurate.
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mogwan
·We posted at the same time. It doesn't frigthen me more than that. If I can service a watch I may be able to repair a colt. It will be another story to find the right cases to test it.
THANKS AGAIN
I sold my entire 20 piece Colt "Snake Gun" collection in 2001 cause the parts are near impossible to find in serviceable condition. Many forget that the Colt factory gunsmiths would assemble revolver lockwork parts like hands, rebound levers etc. by choosing a well fitting part from a box of perhaps 50 or 100 pieces or so, stroke the part with a file 3-4 times, and achieve a great fit. Today, if you want to shoot old Colts, you need to come to terms that there's a good chance if a part wears, you're not gonna find the part-find a gunsmith who can fit the part if you find it- or probably ruin a very expensive piece of metal if you try it yourself. Grant Cunningham was one of the best Python gunsmiths in the US. He could also remove the stacking from the trigger pull by altering the geometry. His 'waitlist' to get work done before he retired was approx. 3-5 years when he quit...Why? He had to spend too much time chasing near unobtainable parts and clients didn't want to pay for his time doing this.
I replaced my Pythons with a fine collection of pre-lock- no MIM S&W revolvers... Much easier to work on and most parts still available in new condition.
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Waltesefalcon
·@mogwan I agree with Kuhnhausen on that count, forged parts are much better. One of the reasons I like older guns is that I can completely avoid MIM parts.
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mogwan
·Yes, I'm about to start a new thread to see if anyone has done any "second go" case hardening of forged parts.
I bought a mixed bag of old S&W revolver parts about two yr ago for $80 and it included several hammers and triggers with really poorly cut sears... As you may know, the case hardening is only .005" so it's really easy to go right through the hardening. when you do that, the trigger is then good for maybe 500 shots before they get rounded off. a proper sear should be straight and sharp enough to shave bits off your thumbnail!
I'd like to try to properly re-cut them as 'two piece sets' of hammer & matched trigger. this is the way S&W sold replacements in "the old days..." But they would need to be case-hardened after re-cutting them- that's why I call it a "Second go" in the hardening process.
Best-mog
I bought a mixed bag of old S&W revolver parts about two yr ago for $80 and it included several hammers and triggers with really poorly cut sears... As you may know, the case hardening is only .005" so it's really easy to go right through the hardening. when you do that, the trigger is then good for maybe 500 shots before they get rounded off. a proper sear should be straight and sharp enough to shave bits off your thumbnail!
I'd like to try to properly re-cut them as 'two piece sets' of hammer & matched trigger. this is the way S&W sold replacements in "the old days..." But they would need to be case-hardened after re-cutting them- that's why I call it a "Second go" in the hardening process.
Best-mog
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerYes, I'm about to start a new thread to see if anyone has done any "second go" case hardening of forged parts.
I bought a mixed bag of old S&W revolver parts about two yr ago for $80 and it included several hammers and triggers with really poorly cut sears... As you may know, the case hardening is only .005" so it's really easy to go right through the hardening. when you do that, the trigger is then good for maybe 500 shots before they get rounded off. a proper sear should be straight and sharp enough to shave bits off your thumbnail!
I'd like to try to properly re-cut them as 'two piece sets' of hammer & matched trigger. this is the way S&W sold replacements in "the old days..." But they would need to be case-hardened after re-cutting them- that's why I call it a "Second go" in the hardening process.
Best-mog
FYI - I know nothing about these specific part or gunsmithing, but I have a lot of experience with case hardening of parts in an industrial setting.
How easy this will be would entirely depend on how they were case hardened in the first place. Is this a low carbon steel that has been carburized to add carbon to a specific depth? If so, then if you remove that area of the part, you will have to carburize the parts in a carbon rich atmosphere at temperature, quench, and then harden it after. The depth of the hardening will depend on how deep the carbon layer is that is made during the carburizing process.
If the case hardening was done on a high carbon steel part, but only selectively heated to harden the specific area, then it will be easy - just remove the material you need to and harden after.
Cheers, Al
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mogwan
·FYI - I know nothing about these specific part or gunsmithing, but I have a lot of experience with case hardening of parts in an industrial setting.
How easy this will be would entirely depend on how they were case hardened in the first place. Is this a low carbon steel that has been carburized to add carbon to a specific depth? If so, then if you remove that area of the part, you will have to carburize the parts in a carbon rich atmosphere at temperature, quench, and then harden it after. The depth of the hardening will depend on how deep the carbon layer is that is made during the carburizing process.
If the case hardening was done on a high carbon steel part, but only selectively heated to harden the specific area, then it will be easy - just remove the material you need to and harden after.
Cheers, Al
Howdy Al,
What great info! some coincidence I post about case hardening and the guy who gets my post "just happens" to know about it! God, some days I love (or hate) the internet... I'm a retired computer engineer and networking contractor with many hobbies and my biggest thrill is to find people I can actually learn things of value from! I'll do some research about S&W's processes.
I have a friend here who is a custom knife maker here in Santa Fe and I think his kiln, a proper crucible to hold the part and carbon mixture, and the correct time and temp just may work.
Thanks Heaps for the info!
Best regards-mog
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerHowdy Al,
What great info! some coincidence I post about case hardening and the guy who gets my post "just happens" to know about it! God, some days I love (or hate) the internet... I'm a retired computer engineer and networking contractor with many hobbies and my biggest thrill is to find people I can actually learn things of value from! I'll do some research about S&W's processes.
I have a friend here who is a custom knife maker here in Santa Fe and I think his kiln, a proper crucible to hold the part and carbon mixture, and the correct time and temp just may work.
Thanks Heaps for the info!
Best regards-mog
Glad it helped. Here's some metallurgical samples from back in the day when I worked as an engineer for a company that did a lot of this:
You can see the inner core of the parts are quite different when cut, mounted, and polished, compared to the thinner outer layer that had been carburized and hardened.
Back then the furnaces used toluene pumped in to create the carbon rich atmosphere - had to go in above a certain temperature or it would blow the furnace up. We later switched to natural gas, which was a lot safer.
You want to quench after carburizing, as exposure to atmosphere will cause decarb - the carbon will leach right back out of the steel, so you want to quench it fairly quickly once it comes out. Then clean up the scale and harden.
Cheers, Al
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mogwan
·Glad it helped. Here's some metallurgical samples from back in the day when I worked as an engineer for a company that did a lot of this:
You can see the inner core of the parts are quite different when cut, mounted, and polished, compared to the thinner outer layer that had been carburized and hardened.
Back then the furnaces used toluene pumped in to create the carbon rich atmosphere - had to go in above a certain temperature or it would blow the furnace up. We later switched to natural gas, which was a lot safer.
You want to quench after carburizing, as exposure to atmosphere will cause decarb - the carbon will leach right back out of the steel, so you want to quench it fairly quickly once it comes out. Then clean up the scale and harden.
Cheers, Al
Al,
How cool is that??? Toluene environment for the furnace! Wow! Good to know the carbon is 'fugitive' if not quenched quickly!
Many Thanks for teaching me something new today 😀 -mog
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SkunkPrince
·Now you have me curious. I wonder whether charcoal bluing contributed any hardening?
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mogwan
·Now you have me curious. I wonder whether charcoal bluing contributed any hardening?
from https://imgur.com/gallery/ny95m
The finish on these early Colts is very unique. At the time Colt finished the guns (even the military models) the only way they knew how - to perfection. Each part was hand polished using a series of specially designed polishing wheels. In addition, each part was polished at least four times using increasingly fine abrasives. The final polish was achieved using walrus hide and whale oil. By the time the workmen (we would call them craftsmen today!) were done, the entire gun had a brilliant mirror-like finish. After the gun was polished, it was degreased in a boiling gasoline bath. It would then go into a coal fired oven which had a layer of charcoal and whale oil at the bottom. The guns would bake for several hours. Periodically a workman would come along and scrub the guns with oakum (a type of fiber) and whiting (a type of ash). This scrub would clean away any charred material as well as polish the gun even more! If that wasn’t enough, the entire process was repeated up to six times until the workman was satisfied with the color and depth of the bluing.
In addition to the mirror-like reflective finish, Colt also applied a “fire blue” to the small parts. All of the small parts were placed into a cast iron vessel containing a charcoal and bone mix. It was heated until the small parts took on an iridescent blue color. The small parts with their turquoise color really pop against the reflective mirror-like finish. While the finish is indeed quite handsome, the military was less than impressed. I guess the last thing you want in a battle situation is a highly reflective gun with brilliant blue accents! At the military’s request the finish was toned down until eventually the gun was mostly a dull, dark black (the so-called “Black Army” finish). Unfortunately with the switch to the dull black finish, the exact technique for the original brilliant finish has been lost in time. Not only did Colt switch from coal to gas ovens, but some of the materials are now simply unavailable - sperm whale oil anyone?
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerNow you have me curious. I wonder whether charcoal bluing contributed any hardening?
Been a long time since I’ve studied a TTT Diagram, but hardening happens only when temperatures are high enough to change the microstructure. Bluing is not typically done at temperatures high enough to do this.
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mogwan
·Hmm.... this is what I thought...
Thanks for the addition to this thread!
Best-mog
Thanks for the addition to this thread!
Best-mog
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Waltesefalcon
·A couple of years back I made a few attempts to case harden black powder revolver parts after fitting them. I used a simple brick furnace with a small bellows, charcoal and beef bones from the butcher. After a few tries I got decent results on my hammers, I have no idea of the actual hardness or the depth of the case hardening though. I never could get the color to look really brilliant though.