Sellita - What's the Rub?

mzinski · Oct 20, 2020

I'd have to be blind and living under a rock to miss the outright dismissiveness towards Sellita movements. Not just here but on every WIS forum out there.
What gives? Why is everyone so in hate with this brand? Or at least perceive it offer no value to watches?
My understanding is Sellita was an outside contractor to ETA, producing ETA movements and parts. They did this for years until Swatch Group took over, eventually changing the relationship with outside contractors. Sellita, being all ready equipped to make ETA movement paired with the expired patents, continued to make "ETA" movements. From my rudimentary understanding, a Sellita is an ETA.
9/10 people would pick a watch with an ETA over a Sellita, probably writing home about the merits of the ETA movement. But depending on the age of the watch, it could very well have been a Sellita produced ETA.
What's the rub?

akshayluc420 · Oct 20, 2020

Tag and Oris use Sellita and they get plenty of love.

I understand more recent ETAs have 80H power reserves, Silicon balance springs and some antimagnetic components, so perhaps that's what's appealing to the more functionally minded people. Brand and prestige wise, I'm sure you get why the non-WIS would prefer an older, established movement maker that has powered such a vast array of swiss watches for almost a century. Originals are usually preferred to even the most faithful of reproductions.

ETA has higher grade, much better finished and decorated movements which I personally have not come across from Sellita, so those which have a display case-back might prefer the ETA. Having said that, the Aquis I had was a Sellita and whilst it didn't make me drool, it wasn't a dog to look at either.

Lots of smaller independent brands and homage watches carry the Sellita to maintain the 'Swiss' USP over getting a Miyota/Seiko/Seagull, that way it serves as a middle ground in terms of price.

Courses for horses, I'm good with Sellita.

JwRosenthal · Oct 20, 2020

The Miyota's are workhorses and known for their reliability. They aren't the prettiest things to look at, but they are a quality mass produced movement (and have several grades). Yet I still balk at watches with them just becuase of a perceived value I place on Swiss movements- it's not based in rational thought.
I think it's more of a perceived value- like buying Kleenex versus buying generic "facial tissue" (even though they may have very well been made in the same facility)- the branding and decades of marketing imprint a perceived quality over the competition.

Wlcutter · Oct 20, 2020

I'm continually fascinated by this. I'd posit the following: the information most folks have about real granular-level stuff re movements is just not that fleshed out or developed, and is often wrong. Lots of parties are to blame for that, but that's not an interesting fight, either.

Sellita's bread and butter for half a century was making overflow ETA movements, full stop. The ETA-branded prestige movements of the 1950s/60s/70s that folks so loved were, often as not, created in overflow shops, often Sellita. I've handled and used a fair number of Sellita movements, and I know of no watchmakers who'd argue there's much of a difference between ETA and Sellita at this point, certainly not in finishing or decoration. Their watches time out very well, they're reliable, and they take just as much of a beating as ETAs (if it matters: my experiences have specifically been with 2892/SW300s, 2824/SW200s and 775X/SW500 chronos). They had rougher stuff in the early 2000s, when they were first on their own, but that's no longer the case.

ETA certainly has a far bigger R+D war chest, and has developed really cool upgrades; how much those upgrades *matter* or mean to watch buyers would be a great debate. It would be welcome to see Sellita do more research as well; that said, as this interview with SC notes, that's not really who they are.

Archer · Oct 20, 2020

mzinski
From my rudimentary understanding, a Sellita is an ETA.

Well, it's not, so that's the key thing.

It's true that Sellita was involved in "making" ETA movements, but my understanding is that was limited to assembly, not parts production. But either way that is a moot point, because when Sellita decided to make their own versions of these movements (starting with the ETA 2824-2, making the SW200), they didn't use the same designs. The "envelope" dimensions of the movements are the same, and they have the same functions, but these are not the same movements.

For whatever reason, Sellita chose to abandon the longstanding and well proven design of the ETA movement, and "improve" on it. So looking at the 2824-2 and the SW200, some of this was successful, and some not. So for example adding a jewel in the barrel bridge didn't cause any issues - not sure it was a huge advantage, but I'll call it a positive. Here is a comparison of a 2824-2 bridge, and the SW200 bridge:

Many people believe that the parts in these movements can be swapped - but in many cases they can't be. So you can see the jewel instead of a bushing, but you can also see that the steady pins are on the bridge on the ETA, but on the Sellita there are holes - the pins are on the main plate - these parts are not interchangeable.

There are other differences to, for example the reversing wheels:

You can see that the pinions at the center of each wheel are different, so these parts can't be swapped between the ETA and Sellita versions. Now is this a big deal? Well maybe, because I find that suppliers charge far more for Sellita parts than they do for the equivalent ETA parts, sometimes many multiples.

But is that all? Nope - here are the two ratchet wheels:

You will note that the teeth of the ratchet wheel for the Sellita are a different profile, and less beefy than the ETA teeth. This is actually after they were beefed up, as the original SW200 teeth were thinner, and had a habit of snapping off in use. This is what lead to the SW200-1 where the tooth profile was changed:

So the SW200-1 was supposed to prevent this from happening again, but unfortunately it has not been 100% successful:

Although this problem is not as prevalent was it was early on, you can still find complaints of it happening on forums. I think in some ways this issue, and the failure to resolve it completely, has caused a reputational hit to Sellita that still lingers.

Now I don't hear of problems with the SW300's or the SW500's, but personally I don't see those much as I see the SW200 series most. I don't actually see those very often either, yet I've had a few with damaged ratchet wheels. In comparison, I'm not sure I've ever had an issue like this on the 2824-2, and I've serviced hundreds of those.

Anyway, not picking on Sellita, but it's important to know that when people say they are "identical: to the ETA, they really aren't.

Cheers, Al

Archer · Oct 20, 2020

Wlcutter
I'd posit the following: the information most folks have about real granular-level stuff re movements is just not that fleshed out or developed, and is often wrong.

On this point I couldn't agree with you more...

Wlcutter · Oct 20, 2020

Archer
Well, it's not, so that's the key thing.

It's true that Sellita was involved in "making" ETA movements, but my understanding is that was limited to assembly, not parts production. But either way that is a moot point, because when Sellita decided to make their own versions of these movements (starting with the ETA 2824-2, making the SW200), they didn't use the same designs. The "envelope" dimensions of the movements are the same, and they have the same functions, but these are not the same movements.

For whatever reason, Sellita chose to abandon the longstanding and well proven design of the ETA movement, and "improve" on it. So looking at the 2824-2 and the SW200, some of this was successful, and some not. So for example adding a jewel in the barrel bridge didn't cause any issues - not sure it was a huge advantage, but I'll call it a positive. Here is a comparison of a 2824-2 bridge, and the SW200 bridge:

Many people believe that the parts in these movements can be swapped - but in many cases they can't be. So you can see the jewel instead of a bushing, but you can also see that the steady pins are on the bridge on the ETA, but on the Sellita there are holes - the pins are on the main plate - these parts are not interchangeable.

There are other differences to, for example the reversing wheels:

You can see that the pinions at the center of each wheel are different, so these parts can't be swapped between the ETA and Sellita versions. Now is this a big deal? Well maybe, because I find that suppliers charge far more for Sellita parts than they do for the equivalent ETA parts, sometimes many multiples.

But is that all? Nope - here are the two ratchet wheels:

You will note that the teeth of the ratchet wheel for the Sellita are a different profile, and less beefy than the ETA teeth. This is actually after they were beefed up, as the original SW200 teeth were thinner, and had a habit of snapping off in use. This is what lead to the SW200-1 where the tooth profile was changed:

So the SW200-1 was supposed to prevent this from happening again, but unfortunately it has not been 100% successful:

Although this problem is not as prevalent was it was early on, you can still find complaints of it happening on forums. I think in some ways this issue, and the failure to resolve it completely, has caused a reputational hit to Sellita that still lingers.

Now I don't hear of problems with the SW300's or the SW500's, but personally I don't see those much as I see the SW200 series most. I don't actually see those very often either, yet I've had a few with damaged ratchet wheels. In comparison, I'm not sure I've ever had an issue like this on the 2824-2, and I've serviced hundreds of those.

Anyway, not picking on Sellita, but it's important to know that when people say they are "identical: to the ETA, they really aren't.

Cheers, Al

Archer--

Lordy, this is amazing--thanks for this. I'd heard about the ratchet wheel, but hadn't seen the results up close. Thanks for another illuminating post.

MCC · Oct 20, 2020

@Archer many thanks for a really interesting and informative answer to the OP's question

mzinski · Oct 21, 2020

Archer
Now is this a big deal? Well maybe, because I find that suppliers charge far more for Sellita parts than they do for the equivalent ETA parts, sometimes many multiples.

Surely you mistyped here. I have an account with Sellita - it’s very easy to set up for anyone owning a business. The parts are unfathomably cheap to purchase direct for Sellita. For example, a fourth wheel for a SW300 cost me $1.80, an escape wheel was $5.00, and a screw was $0.15.

mzinski · Oct 21, 2020

Archer
Although this problem is not as prevalent was it was early on, you can still find complaints of it happening on forums. I think in some ways this issue, and the failure to resolve it completely, has caused a reputational hit to Sellita that still lingers.

Your pictures and anecdote are 4-7 years old. I wonder if you have more recent experience with them. Have the ratchet wheels been improved with 2013? Are the current complaints about the old movements?
Regardless I have a SW300 that I’m curious to go inspect. If I can capture a magnified picture of the ratchet wheel at anywhere near the legibility of your pics, I’ll share.

STANDY · Oct 21, 2020

mzinski
Your pictures and anecdote are 4-7 years old. I wonder if you have more recent experience with them. Have the ratchet wheels been improved with 2013? Are the current complaints about the old movements?
Regardless I have a SW300 that I’m curious to go inspect. If I can capture a magnified picture of the ratchet wheel at anywhere near the legibility of your pics, I’ll share.

Just google Stellita problems
It’s in the 200, 300 and 500

When Invicta owners are complaining about a movement 😗

Sellita SW200 Defective Movement

I hope Invicta is aware of the issues with the Sellita SW200 and not put this defective movement in its new production models. I was shocked to see it in the newly released meteorite diver model. In June of 2009 I purchased an Invicta Diamond Pro Diver, Model 6150, which has a Sellita SW200 movement. Within a few months the watch stopped and could not be wound. I sent it to Invicta repair and got it back in one month, with no paper work or explanation of what was done.

Archer · Oct 21, 2020

mzinski
Surely you mistyped here. I have an account with Sellita - it’s very easy to set up for anyone owning a business. The parts are unfathomably cheap to purchase direct for Sellita. For example, a fourth wheel for a SW300 cost me $1.80, an escape wheel was $5.00, and a screw was $0.15.

No, as I wrote clearly, I'm talking about parts suppliers, not Sellita.

mzinski
Your pictures and anecdote are 4-7 years old. I wonder if you have more recent experience with them. Have the ratchet wheels been improved with 2013? Are the current complaints about the old movements?
Regardless I have a SW300 that I’m curious to go inspect. If I can capture a magnified picture of the ratchet wheel at anywhere near the legibility of your pics, I’ll share.

Again, as I wrote you still see reports of this happening on forums, but not as often as they used to. You will note that the failure I've shown is the upgraded part already. It's quite possible that the ratchet wheels have been upgraded since 2013, but if they have done so, why didn't Sellita publish this somewhere as they did with the previous upgrade? Given how this issue has impacted the brand, you would think they would want to publish it if the wheels had been improved. The fact that they haven't published anything, would lead me to believe there's been no change. Since you have a business relationship with them, please ask them and let us know - that would be good thanks.

I don't typically get a lot of these in, so I can't recall the last one I had in the shop. I service a lot of watches, so I can't remember every one I see.

But again the primary point is that ETA and Sellita are not the same movements as you had suggested.

There are a lot of obviously "pro" Sellita people out there who have had good results with the movements. But some of them are a little desperate in their need to make claims about the movements being the same or just as good. I'm not taking sides here, as personally I don't care...I just want people to understand that these are not the same movements.

Cheers, Al

pongster · Oct 23, 2020

Archer
Well, it's not, so that's the key thing.

It's true that Sellita was involved in "making" ETA movements, but my understanding is that was limited to assembly, not parts production. But either way that is a moot point, because when Sellita decided to make their own versions of these movements (starting with the ETA 2824-2, making the SW200), they didn't use the same designs. The "envelope" dimensions of the movements are the same, and they have the same functions, but these are not the same movements.

For whatever reason, Sellita chose to abandon the longstanding and well proven design of the ETA movement, and "improve" on it. So looking at the 2824-2 and the SW200, some of this was successful, and some not. So for example adding a jewel in the barrel bridge didn't cause any issues - not sure it was a huge advantage, but I'll call it a positive. Here is a comparison of a 2824-2 bridge, and the SW200 bridge:

Many people believe that the parts in these movements can be swapped - but in many cases they can't be. So you can see the jewel instead of a bushing, but you can also see that the steady pins are on the bridge on the ETA, but on the Sellita there are holes - the pins are on the main plate - these parts are not interchangeable.

There are other differences to, for example the reversing wheels:

You can see that the pinions at the center of each wheel are different, so these parts can't be swapped between the ETA and Sellita versions. Now is this a big deal? Well maybe, because I find that suppliers charge far more for Sellita parts than they do for the equivalent ETA parts, sometimes many multiples.

But is that all? Nope - here are the two ratchet wheels:

You will note that the teeth of the ratchet wheel for the Sellita are a different profile, and less beefy than the ETA teeth. This is actually after they were beefed up, as the original SW200 teeth were thinner, and had a habit of snapping off in use. This is what lead to the SW200-1 where the tooth profile was changed:

So the SW200-1 was supposed to prevent this from happening again, but unfortunately it has not been 100% successful:

Although this problem is not as prevalent was it was early on, you can still find complaints of it happening on forums. I think in some ways this issue, and the failure to resolve it completely, has caused a reputational hit to Sellita that still lingers.

Now I don't hear of problems with the SW300's or the SW500's, but personally I don't see those much as I see the SW200 series most. I don't actually see those very often either, yet I've had a few with damaged ratchet wheels. In comparison, I'm not sure I've ever had an issue like this on the 2824-2, and I've serviced hundreds of those.

Anyway, not picking on Sellita, but it's important to know that when people say they are "identical: to the ETA, they really aren't.

Cheers, Al

now, there’s the rub. Thanks for this sir. OP, i suppose this answers your question.

mzinski · Oct 23, 2020

P pongster
now, there’s the rub. Thanks for this sir. OP, i suppose this answers your question.

What’s the rub exactly?

pongster · Oct 23, 2020

mzinski
What’s the rub exactly?

am no techie but from what was posted and explained above, Sellita and ETA are not the same.

personally, i dont care. I have watches that have Sellita movements and watches that have ETA movements.

mzinski · Oct 23, 2020

So to summarize the technical points, I've heard the movements are not 100% identical and the SW200 had some ratchet wheel issues before they modified the ratchet wheel with the SW200-1. There are sporadic and anecdotal reports of continued ratchet wheel issues in the SW200-1.
Less quantitatively, it seems like Sellita suffers from the plight of marketing. While no one, including Archer, has admitted to an aversion to Sellita here I have noticed comments, most recently in the thread regarding the recent Massena Labs release, that higher price points cannot be commanded if a Sellita is used. If all other aspects were equal, it seems using an ETA7750 vs a SW500 allows for a higher price point because the perception is ETA is better.
Me - I like Sellita's. I haven't had any issues with them yet and searching for recent issues seems much more sparse compared with 2008(ish) time period. I'll admit I also like their independence and support of microbrands. Unlike ETA they're not under Swatch Group and they will willing sell movement and parts to anyone. Pretty cool in my opinion.
And for what it's worth, here's the best picture I could capture of my SW300-1 ratchet wheel. I only have an iPhone and 10x loupe - so go easy on my photographic skills.

Archer · Oct 23, 2020

mzinski
While no one, including Archer, has admitted to an aversion to Sellita here

I'll clarify for you - personally if I had a choice between a watch that has a Sellita movement in it, and one with an ETA movement, all else being equal I would certainly take the ETA. It isn't related to "marketing" but confidence in the design. The ETA's are proven long term, and Sellita isn't. It's not any kind of "hate" or "disrespect" for Sellita, but a simple practical decision that I think a lot of people make in the very same way. Some are willing to pay a premium for that peace of mind, and frankly I probably would as well.

mzinski
Me - I like Sellita's.

Really? I never would have guessed. 😉

mzinski
I'll admit I also like their independence and support of microbrands.

Not sure what you mean by support of microbrands. But as for Sellita's independence, you do understand that they don't make everything, right?

Swatch still supplies Sellita with parts, because Sellita themselves can't make the entire movement. So the last time I read anything firm about this, Nivarox FAR was supplying the balance assembly, pallet fork, and escape wheel. Sellita had no plans to make those at any time in the foreseeable future, so I doubt that has changed. If they were, I suspect they would be making it known to everyone and anyone who would listen, because that's a big deal. I would suspect they are also getting their mainspring from Swatch as well.

Note that Sellita are not unique in this regard, and roughly 90% of the Swiss watch industry does the same...

Cheers, Al

mzinski · Oct 23, 2020

Archer
I'll clarify for you - personally if I had a choice between a watch that has a Sellita movement in it, and one with an ETA movement, all else being equal I would certainly take the ETA.

I misread or misunderstood you statement from a previous post above - sorry, I didn't mean to misrepresent you.

Archer
I'm not taking sides here, as personally I don't care...I just want people to understand that these are not the same movements.

^^^ This one.

Archer
Really? I never would have guessed. 😉

I also like ETA.

Archer
Not sure what you mean by support of microbrands. But as for Sellita's independence, you do understand that they don't make everything, right?

Yes, I fully understand they don't make everything. The point isn't their support via making everything but supplying movements to brands and people NOT associated with Swatch Group. Sellita was not embroiled in lawsuits for trying to limit supply and making bold statements about exclusivity. Hayek claimed supplying other companies outside the Swatch Group with movements was like GM supplying motors to other car companies, stating they could "...go to hell". And I'll note that was a pretty dimwitted statement on his part: https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines
I get it, owning a parts company and watch companies, it's good business for Swatch Group to be exclusive. But like I said, I appreciate Sellita for being a parts company that will support anyone and everyone.

akshayluc420 · Oct 23, 2020

Archer
Some are willing to pay a premium for that peace of mind, and frankly I probably would as well.

Same here; it's like cars really, they say never buy the 1st gen of anything till they work out all the kinks and bugs. Better the devil you know. Ofc I'm not saying Sellita is brand spanking new, rather that ETA movements have proven themselves and therefore bring about peace of mind.

OP, along the same vein, Omega too had their share of issues when incorporating the Co-axial in their 2500, 3603 etc movements, which themselves utilised robust movements from ETA/Lemania/F. Piguet. There was a thread recently talking about some issues with the new 3861 movement!

Today Tag, Tudor, Oris, MontBlanc, Frederique Constant and a few others are making their own movements 'in-house', and I suspect that the more intricate and specialised components would still be sourced from ETA or other suppliers. Vertical integration within horology has its limits.

I think the rub ends up being along the lines of how much a consumer is willing to pay for brand prestige, design, engineering, and the je na se quoi. The educated WIS knows the pros and cons of ETA and Sellita, and these various forums are here to help!

Archer · Oct 23, 2020

mzinski
I misread or misunderstood you statement from a previous post above - sorry, I didn't mean to misrepresent you.

My previous post was speaking as a watchmaker, my second was speaking as a watch owner.

In other words, I'm not trying to put people off owning Sellita, or put down the movements in any way. If people prefer them for whatever reason, that's completely up to them. Personally I don't care what other people may prefer or what version crosses my bench - whatever it is I'll fix it.

mzinski
Yes, I fully understand they don't make everything.

Good - when you spoke about their "independence" I wondered, because they aren't much more independent that a company reproducing any other movement parts are really. They are limited with what they can produce by Swatch, so in reality they aren't very independent at all until they bring those capabilities under their own roof.

mzinski
The point isn't their support via making everything but supplying movements to brands and people NOT associated with Swatch Group. Sellita was not embroiled in lawsuits for trying to limit supply and making bold statements about exclusivity. Hayek claimed supplying other companies outside the Swatch Group with movements was like GM supplying motors to other car companies, stating they could "...go to hell". And I'll note that was a pretty dimwitted statement on his part: https://www.chevrolet.com/performance-parts/crate-engines
I get it, owning a parts company and watch companies, it's good business for Swatch Group to be exclusive. But like I said, I appreciate Sellita for being a parts company that will support anyone and everyone.

Yes, there's a lot of Swatch hate out there, some of it justified, and a lot of it misguided. Let's just say that without doing a LOT of research, most are not in a position to judge one way or another.

Ask yourself one question - how many Rolex movements does Rolex sell to competitors?

Cheers, Al

Sellita - What's the Rub?

mzinski

akshayluc420

JwRosenthal

Wlcutter

Archer

Archer

Wlcutter

MCC

mzinski

mzinski

STANDY

Archer

pongster

mzinski

pongster

mzinski

Archer

mzinski

akshayluc420

Archer

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