Removing Cannon Pinion

Eve · Sep 24, 2019

Hi guys, please help with an advice,

i was disassembling the chinese version of the ETA 6497, and could not remove the cannon pinion. so i let it be and disassembled the rest. After reassembling the movement, (movement is running), i can wind the mainspring, but the time setting doesnt work, so obviously the cannon pinion is too tight on the center wheel.

The time setting did work prior to disassembly, therefore i guess the cannon pinion was not too tight initially. So probably i damaged it while trying to remove it. I do believe i was very carefull not to bend or squeeze anything. but it seems that the amount of force required to remove this cannon pinion on this movement is very large, so i let it be.
(I do own an exact same second movement, and there i can remove the cannon pinion without any problems.)

My question is,
Does it mean the cannon pinion or center wheel are already damaged? so that even though i manage to somehow remove it, i will not be able to use it in the future? In this case i would probably snip it off, and order a new replacement part. Otherwise i will try to get a different tool that is designed for this purpose.

P.S. Please dont get hard on me for buying a Parnis, firstly i didnt want to spend to much money (bought it second hand localy) for practising, secondly prior to buying i was not aware of the fact that replica watches finance terrorist.. :/ next time i will get the real ETA.

I used this tool for removing:

Thank you!

JimInOz · Sep 24, 2019

The tool you used is for removing hands and is probably not strong enough for a tight canon pinion. A presto type tool (like your hand remover) also has a slightly larger jaw aperture so that it grips, but doesn't squash the tube.

From the photo, it looks as if there is a "dome" over the Canon pinion, or is that just a reflection?

Try using a pair of round nose pliers with the movement flat on the bench (with the bridges fitted) and a small block of wood or something else close to the edge of the movement to act as a fulcrum and keep the pliers level, then hold the plate down and use the pliers to lift the canon pinion.

Eve · Sep 24, 2019

you are right, this tool which i used, is a hand removing tool. it is definitely too weak for this force. i didnt realise that the e.g. Bergeon Presto tool had a larger jaw, that sertainly would help.

Better photo (i dont think there is a "dome")

JimInOz
Try using a pair of round nose pliers with the movement flat on the bench (with the bridges fitted) and a small block of wood or something else close to the edge of the movement to act as a fulcrum and keep the pliers level, then hold the plate down and use the pliers to lift the canon pinion.

Thank you i will try this method! 😀

Deafboy · Sep 24, 2019

I often use a pair of use watch pry tools for hands and cannon pinion. Not sure if this is the Watchmaker Approved Method though.

watch_hand_levers_59.0427__30491.1513887938.jpg

Deafboy · Sep 24, 2019

Either way, make sure to pull vertically otherwise the jewel may crack. 😲

Eve · Sep 24, 2019

Deafboy
I often use a pair of use watch pry tools for hands and cannon pinion. Not sure if this is the Watchmaker Approved Method though.

Those ones look like you could remove anything! 😁
i guess one has to be carefull when applying leverage not to bend the stem.

Eve · Sep 24, 2019

Deafboy
Either way, make sure to pull vertically otherwise the jewel may crack. 😲

Which jewel may crack?

JimInOz · Sep 24, 2019

Eve
Which jewel may crack?

Centre Wheel Jewel.

Eve · Sep 24, 2019

JimInOz
Centre Wheel Jewel.

Right, didnt realise there was one hidden behind! 😗 👍
Thanks!

Eve · Sep 24, 2019

JimInOz
Centre Wheel Jewel.

I see you have a nice picture with hints for Oiling! 😀

may i ask you another thing? i got myself those two Oils. Its not exactly the same like in your hints, but i guess i can use it anyway?

JimInOz · Sep 24, 2019

If you don't have suitable pliers, you could try your hand remover tool again. Make sure that the pusher feet touch the plate at exactly the same height. If you can't get a level surface, try using a very small washer that will fit over the canon pinion and give the feet a level place to use for leverage.

As @Deafboy noted, the lift must be vertical or else any tilting could crack the centre jewel.

Eve · Sep 24, 2019

JimInOz
If you don't have suitable pliers, you could try your hand remover tool again. Make sure that the pusher feet touch the plate at exactly the same height. If you can't get a level surface, try using a very small washer that will fit over the canon pinion and give the feet a level place to use for leverage.

As @Deafboy noted, the lift must be vertical or else any tilting could crack the centre jewel.

Bingo! this worked sooo smooth! Jewel didnt crack! actually i was even surprised that it went off that easy!
This Forum is the best! 😀 thank you so much!

JimInOz · Sep 24, 2019

Eve
I see you have a nice picture with hints for Oiling! 😀

Not mine, found on the net.

Eve
......may i ask you another thing? i got myself those two Oils. Its not exactly the same like in your hints, but i guess i can use it anyway?

If they are the only lubricants you have, use the 8200 on slow moving parts like barrel arbors, centre wheel jewels, winding parts etc. Everywhere else, you can use the 9010, e.g.: balance jewels, escape jewels/pallets.

Archer · Sep 24, 2019

Personally, I use tweezers for removing the CP. I've never had any damage to jewels doing it this way. Any CP remover that I've tried have been very inadequate for the job in my experience.

Always keep the bridge on to support the center wheel when you remove the CP. Cleaning a movement without disassembling the CP will certainly lead to problems, so this type (and most others) should always be disassembled prior to cleaning. I typically use grease on the center wheel, in the slight groove where the CP is crimped. Currently Moebius 9504, but in the past Jismaa 124.

If you don't have grease, use the heaviest oil you have. Always support the center wheel opposite the CP when pressing it on - that is more likely to damage jewels than removing it will.

Cheers, Al

Eve · Sep 24, 2019

Archer
Personally, I use tweezers for removing the CP. I've never had any damage to jewels doing it this way. Any CP remover that I've tried have been very inadequate for the job in my experience.

I did try removing it with tweezers as well, but without success, on the few movements i tried before i also managed to remove CP with tweezers without any problems. Maybe this chinese movement has some quality issues..
Generally the movements looks not so bad on the first site. But when i look at the escape wheel, it looks really terrible under the loop. Also the balance jewel shock springs feel pretty weak, i hope i will manage to place them back without damaging. And the click-spring was very weak, and i had to bend it a bit in order for the Ratchet Wheel to block after winding.

Archer
Always keep the bridge on to support the center wheel when you remove the CP.

In this case i removed it while usind the movement holder, so i guess there was no need for support on the other side.

Archer
Cleaning a movement without disassembling the CP will certainly lead to problems, so this type (and most others) should always be disassembled prior to cleaning. I typically use grease on the center wheel, in the slight groove where the CP is crimped. Currently Moebius 9504, but in the past Jismaa 124.

Those are the only two Oils i have ordered, since they are not very cheap.
I wonder if time setting will work after i reassemble it next time. Is there any way to test whether the CP is too tight or too loose on the Center Wheel prior to assembling?

Archer
If you don't have grease, use the heaviest oil you have. Always support the center wheel opposite the CP when pressing it on - that is more likely to damage jewels than removing it will.

Is it fine to use this Case Cushion to support the Center Wheel when puting the CP back on?

Thank you for the advice!

Archer · Sep 24, 2019

Eve
In this case i removed it while usind the movement holder, so i guess there was no need for support on the other side.

The bridge keeps the wheel from tilting as you try to pull the CP off, and letting it tilt is what can damage the jewel.

Eve
Those are the only two Oils i have ordered, since they are not very cheap.
I wonder if time setting will work after i reassemble it next time. Is there any way to test whether the CP is too tight or too loose on the Center Wheel prior to assembling?

Not really. if the CP is too tight when you get it on an lubricated, you would have to get a cutting broach inside to open it up. In this case made more difficult by the fact that it's a closed end CP. I have cutting broaches that I've shortened I order to get the proper fit with CP's like this.

Eve
Is it fine to use this Case Cushion to support the Center Wheel when puting the CP back on?

That won't properly support the jewel. Ideally you would have a movement holder designed to support the jewel when pressing the CP on, and it would also support the jewels when pressing the hands on.

If you look at this photo the second row from the top, and second holder in, is for the 6497/6498:

It has supports inside that are adjusted up under the jewel and both the center jewel and depending on how the holder is used, supporting the jewel at 9 or 6 for the small seconds hand. If you don't have anything like this, the next best thing is to support the movement on a sturdy flat surface - obviously a clean surface as well.

Cheers, Al

Eve · Sep 24, 2019

Archer
The bridge keeps the wheel from tilting as you try to pull the CP off, and letting it tilt is what can damage the jewel.

OK, now i got it. The "barrel bridge" to keep the Center Wheel from tilting. I thought you meant the Train Wheel Bridge so that the Center Wheel doesnt touch the surface it is lying on ::facepalm1::

i think i should urgently do some sort of training.. on the other hand, if i didnt do these mistakes, i probably would not know what one is talking about..

Ok i also understand the purpose of the support inside the case holders, no more mounting hands on the soft case cussion!

It looks like one could invest unlimited amount of money into equipment..

Thank you!
Best regards!

Deafboy · Sep 24, 2019

Eve
It looks like one could invest unlimited amount of money into equipment..

Al and Chris, both professional watchmakers, will agree with you on that!

Eve · Sep 30, 2019

Archer
Not really. if the CP is too tight when you get it on an lubricated, you would have to get a cutting broach inside to open it up. In this case made more difficult by the fact that it's a closed end CP. I have cutting broaches that I've shortened I order to get the proper fit with CP's like this.

Little update:
After lubricating the cannon pinion and putting the whole movement together, i can wind the mainspring and the time setting works just fine! so probably this was the reason 😀 so thank you!

So i connected my Tg 0.5.0 setup to check out the result of assembly. I know its a low budget solution, but probably better then nothing.

Head down before adjustment (almost full wind):

Head down after adjusting the beat error:

Head down after final adjustment:

I dont know how reliable the results are. The amplitude seems to look not that fancy at almost full wind, otherwise i tested the results in 4 positions (head up, head down, crown up, crown down) and it looks surprisingly not so bad 😀

Eve · Sep 30, 2019

Thats how my poor setup looks like 🤦 😗 😀

Removing Cannon Pinion

Eve

JimInOz

Eve

Deafboy

Deafboy

Eve

Eve

JimInOz

Eve

Eve

JimInOz

Eve

JimInOz

Archer

Eve

Archer

Eve

Deafboy

Eve

Eve

Similar threads

MSR T-57 Offset Cannon Pinion - A cautionary tale - Did I mention I hate offset cannon pinions?

Tool for removing split stem crowns

550 Second pinion friction spring damage?

Omega Cal. 1002 Third Wheel Cannon Pinion Help

351 movement cannon pinion problem

Has anyone ever had a near impossible time removing the pin and collar from an Omega bracelet?